About VST exporting feature
I'm not sure if there's a topic about that... anyway, I'd like that Cycling '74 will include the feature to export AU, VST2
and VST3 plugins in MAX, because Max 8 is a fabulous software and it's a pity that it currently has this gap. This will be an incentive to buy MAX from developers who do not yet use MAX. I tried some of the frameworks and other softwares to build audio plugins (Hise, SynthEdit, Flowstone etc...) but, first of all, none of them gets the incredible power of MAX and most of them are suffering of bugs and are in a unstable stadium. I think that if MAX gets this feature, it becomes the most endearing software in the market.
the official announcement from 2015:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f94Go5Qafg8
and a practical tutorial:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysmEYOYosbs
i agree this would be a huge benefit and open up a lot of potentials for both Max and it's users.
a lot of my fellow music technology students, although they loved max, they never really carried on using it after the studies, since there was not much potential to make some sort of a living out of it, and ended up setting up speakers at gigs instead of doing something they really liked.
i continue using it 'cause i'm an ableton user, and i confess that maxforlive gives me more power than any vst could give me, but it would have helped me a great deal the past couple of years if i had had the option to implement vst's using max as some sort of income.
i don't think ableton has anything to loose from this as well, as people who want to have the full power of max inside their DAW would still choose Live over other sequencers, while standalone Max itself (due to the VST implementation abilities), would expand and gratify it's userbase tremendously
@ben sonic:
thanks!
will have a deeper look into it when i have time
@ben sonic
well, I prefer that MAX could be export VST and AU plugins without using JUCE, just other frameworks do that and so developers must pay 700$ more to JUCE licensing to do that... HISE, for example uses JUCE, so developers pay 700$ (JUCE) plus about $700 (Visual Studio 2017 Pro) if they want develop commercial plugins.
If MAX could export plugins with no further licensing costs (Steinberg sdk is free), it will become more popular imho.
YouTube links were very useful - It looks like Max should be able to basically export as vst (just a few steps along the way) and Juce is free for individual use... I agree though, it would be nice if Max was a one stop shop; the whole m4l thing is basically useless for developers and those who don't use live. I plan on trying this out myself in the next couple days, we'll see how it goes.
@D. COWARD I should export vst plugins for commercial use so I can't use the JUCE free license, and pay $700 a commercial license of JUCE to use only the vst feature is unbalanced, I will not JUCE for other things and so I will have a software that I will use in a very small part. Better that MAX could do that native ;-)
@ARISTIDE LAI no doubt, I believe they had that capability on early versions of Max - but it looks like they are trying to drive everyone to use (sticky) Ableton. Seems odd considering Max users are especially particular about controlling every aspect of their project (that's the whole point of Max, no?) - that being said, the Juce revenue limit is 50k for the free personal license - and you can upgrade your license ex post facto if you hit that revenue.
@D. COWARD you right, anyway the MAX support replied me that the vst exporting feature, for an high users request, is on the discussion inside the team, let's hope. I never liked use Ableton Live and I don't think that MAX team will persuade me to use it ;-) You right about the JUCE free personal license too, anyway I prefer to use one only app to do that and not to install many software :-)
What about support for VST3? The VST export tutorial states that only SDK 2.3 and 2.4 are supported, however AFAIK Steinberg doesn't allow to use those old versions anymore
What about support for VST3? The VST export tutorial states that only SDK 2.3 and 2.4 are supported, however AFAIK Steinberg doesn't allow to use those old versions anymore
Steinberg doesn't allow to use old versions (VST2) only to those developers who didn't firmed the license before October 2018 deadline (like me). All the developers and companies that firmed before that date can still use and develope the VST 2. I firmed after the deadline the VST3 license and so I can create only VST3 plugins.
I work with both Max and a VST development software, Flowstone - here's what Flowstone had to say in regards to the licensing issue after contacting Steinberg:
"I contacted the Steinberg support related to our licensing questions. Here is the concrete answer:
"I talked with our licensing department and they told me that the license agreement between Dyckerhoff (the developer of Flowstone) and Steinberg covers the mentioned intended use.
Indeed you don't need to do a seperate licence agreement. But often times it happens that developers leave such "middleware" and then sooner or later do need a licence agreement, because else the plugins, according to DCMA, which were created without such middleware, wouldn't be retailable."
** In other words, as long as you create your plugins with Flowstone, you don't need your own licence agreement for the SDK! **
Only when making direct use of the SDK, for example by programming in C++/JUCE or with another C++ package like WDL/IPlug, do you need a license agreement!"
So yes, with Juce you may run into licensing issues - but not with FlowStone. If Max had a native VST exporting feature, like Flowstone does, I wonder if the same logic would apply. I suppose it would depend on the license Cycling 74 has with Steinberg, and if I am understanding the statement which was originally translated from German.
I don't think having Max users use JUCE is the best option for Cycling 74 - but instead a native export feature perhaps supported by Juce. This might also allow users to get around the licensing issue.
Another option might be to find a dev who has a license to work pre VST3, and make a deal with them... At the moment there's not a lot of options to use Max in developing VSTs outside of prototyping.
Yep, for exemple, HISE doesn't cover the VST licensing because it doesn't embed the VST and you must use the SDK. Cabbage instead covers the VST licensing and JUCE licensing so I can create a VST2 without I should worry about license.
while the legal situation is unproblematic one problem remains: where would new users download the 2.3 SDK? for flowstone you dont need it,, but for gen...
@ROMAN THILENIUS you will find the 2.3 inside the VST 3 SDK
no, it is been removed of course.
I have it when I downloaded the vstsdk3611_22_10_2018_build_34... I will upload it in my dropbox and send you the link, if you wish.
that would be against any logic - and against what yves announced in october.
in the git it also says it had been removed.
btw i just tried to download .81 myself - but the link on the steinberg site seems to be out of order. not for thew first time. :)
politik at laut8leise.de
Pity Cycling74 doesn’t just build a VST plugin that wraps the Max Runtime system!
hehe, the http download of .81 started after 4 hours.
and it actually contains the 2.4 source (but only the source and nothing else)
why do they do that when you can no longer register yourself for a license?
Would love for Max to be able to export Patches wrapped as VST without having to use Juce etc.. I'm using a lot of Max, but as I'm not on Ableton with M4L, I'm using it far less then I would if I could integrate it directly in my sessions.
as l ong as exporting to VST keeps working with max v4, all is good for me.
8]
We hope that the next version of MAX will integrate the export of vst2 and 3. The more we ask, the more chances are that the team will do it. ;-)
When Ableton bought Cycling I lost a bit of hope that we will see it as my guess is they will focus even more on the M4L aspect now. But still fingers crossed, imo it would bring a lot more people to Max and also entice them to keep using it.
if it is really important for you, you have 2 options:
- use max4 / max5 and older computer with older DAWs which support pluggo
- replace your current DAW completely with max. then you can make fine "plug-ins" with bpatcher and freely route stuff around.
but to wait for a new attempt of cycling for direct plug-in export is about as hopeless as waiting for a 64 bit version of flowstone.
Thanks for the reply! Currently I'm using gen export with JUCE to get some dsp ideas into my DAW or just route from the DAW to Max then back. Both works for specific things, still having an export function would be so much nicer.
But I agree with you that a direct plugin export of full max patches probably won't happen anymore sadly...
What I could imagine would be a export to VST function that takes the dsp from gen + allows for a simple interface from a few supported objects, could also be nice already.
of course, for those who know gen and do not need a GUI it might be fine to go the juce or faust route.
+ 10000000000.
Please allow us VST export feature in Max directly.
+1 for direct VST-AU export with GUI from MAX please !
You mean there isn't an easy way to produce VSTs?
That is shocking.
Compatibility wars historically end in failure for everyone - someone else comes along and does the whole thing better.
As consumers what power do we have?
Our power is the +1
Ableton Live's the only daw that gets Max integrated into it, cuz Cycling '74 is owned by Ableton. I don't see that changing. I don't like it, in fact, I think it's pretty clearly a step backwards from the Pluggo days, but it's the situation we've got.
I talked to support about up-to-date documentation on the Gen Export and was told this: (he also recommended I post it here)
Hopefully this happens sooner rather than later
Yes, being able to exports VSTs again is imho the most interesting missing feature.
If they insist they could also provide a VST (and perhaps VCV module) version of Max that then can load patches, like Reaktor. So people would have to buy Max to use the community patchers - and the default sharing format would be patchers, not binaries. So they would sell more Max licenses and the user library would grow a lot faster which would sell even more Max licenses - and Live licenses, if Live is the only environment where all these patchers could be used without a full Max license.
Finally they could offer a more expensive pro developer option for Max that allows to export closed, binary VSTs (and perhaps VCV modules).
If Ableton insists on lock-in with Live then another option might be to switch to Pure Data for some projects that don't rely on Max-exclusive modules. There we have Camomile for VST export and the VCV host can load Pd patches directly.
P.S.: Will be interesting when the first DAW comes up with the idea to (also) support VCV modules as "plugin format". A lot of good choices by now! "vcv~" might also be a nice Max module...
+1 for direct VST export! We really need this...
+1 for direct VST export!
It would be nice indeed to have direct VST export or something like Reaktor does.
+1 for direct VST export. I have been waiting for this for years.
+1
and think of all the good m4l community ideas stolen to make commercial Plug-ins.
please let us do it directly