first feedback from a pre-noob
i'm a non-programmer making the leap from music lover to writer/producer/performer, and just days ago stumbled into your world via an obscure academic reference while researching custom electronic music production. As a long-time fine and graphic artist deeply addicted to the joy of the creative process and bringing to life ideas never tried before, I have to tell all you Max/Jitter users (and the C'74 team) that never before have I ever come across such a vibrant creative community. What you are doing is simply world class.
I opened the C'74 Projects tab out of curiosity, and truely lost 15 hours straight due to each post having something new, unique or different, and I'll be revisiting over half of them! At first, I didn't understand why there were so few comments, as so many of the posts seemed jaw-dropping and cutting edge. But now I think I understand.
You all seem to have found a user-friendly, GUI-ish programming toolbox that makes it much easier to make a custom program for whatever you desire to acomplish in the audio and video realm. Am I right? Thus there are so few comments because you are all busy learning and building and pushing your own limits with your own incredible projects!
I may have zero programing skills, but this is exactly the kind of community I've always sought. Thanks in advance for putting up with these and future NSQs (noob stupid questions), as an inner voice tells me I really ought to give this a go.
My mega goal is to create original EDM (Electonic Dance Music) with integrated video and socially relevant lyrics good enough to change the world. Being able to make custom software for audio and video creation, recording and performance would literally be a dream come true.
My first question is what exactly is Max? Would a correct analogy be it is to computer programing what word processing was to writing and editing? It it like using dreaamweaver to make a website, rather than monkeying with HTML or CSS? Is it being able to drive fast without having to be a mecanic? I want to use tech to shorten time, not spent it learning what I don't need.
2. Can a pre-noob non-programer learn this easily or at all? Is there anything essential to learn prior to learning Max/Jitter? Shoud I get that book early on?
3. What percent of you use Max/Jitter for an employer vs. independent projects self-direced? Any projections for employment opportunity growth?
4. How essential is Max/Jitter to the future of the digital revolution fighter, especially when tech demands seem ever increasing and life/time available diminishes?
5. Where do I start to change my life? Anyone have an "order list" for the tutorials?
Thanks and keep up all the great projects, even if you never post them. You are all changing the future. And remember, if you are the first to do something, and you document it properly, that honor is yours forever...
-kos
planet earth
So I will go through your questions in order
1) max/msp is a graphic programing software that allows you to manipulate/create audio, work with midi and work with numbers. Imagine you had a room filled with ever piece of audio gear ever made and an inf amount of patch cables and put it all in one program. Thats max. It has a steep learning curve, but once you understand the basics you are only limited to your imagination.
2) The tutorials in max, msp and jitter are very extensive and informative. Go through all the max tutorials and you will be in good shape. Remember that if your not sure how a certain object works your can option-click or alt-click on it to bring up the help patch. In the top right of every help patch is the reference page which gives you all the details of that object.
3) I use it in the live theatre world for shows I design and engineer. I cannot comment on job opportunities with max but I know they're out there.
4) Not to sure what your asking here.
5) Like I mentioned before, start with the max tutorials and once you get to number 10 you can jump back and forth between max and msp tutorials.
I hope that helps.
GW
@ GW,
Thanks!
your answer to 1) is even more inspiring than I could ever hope for. If Max can do that, and I'm REALLY only limited by my imagination, count me in! With all that as the potential, I wouldn't care if the learning curve was a sheer cliff face miles high. The heights of the possibilities (once scalled) are simply stellar.
#4 is my acknowledgement that Einsten was wrong. Time is not a constant, but is ever increasing in passing. Thanks to decades already behind me, I don't want to spentd the time learning how to make my own hammer. But, if it means I can make any kind of hammer I can imagine, then i'll do it, because I don't want to be a regular carpenter. There are already enough of those. I want to be the carpenter they call to build the sets for MC Escher's musical.
As to fighting in the digital revolution, the freedom technology has given information is a double edge sword, and the yin/yang/love/hate/good/bad/individual/corporate pressures it creates often obfuscate non-tech needs too easily forgotten. In essence, does the time spent with Max learning and using create more time in the long run?
kos
PS Was I right about the level of creativity here?
"Where do I start to change my life? Anyone have an "order list" for the tutorials?"
peopleĀ“s ways how to learn things are different. i usually try to follow the 110.guidelines
to max programming:
1)
find out what you want to make.
while you do it, you will also find out whats all possible and what not.
2)
very important: JUST DO IT!
you will learn from making errors, not from copying a premade solution. the more time
you spend with maxing, the faster you will progress.
3)
when you reach a point where you lack whatever knowledge: RTFM, use google, search
this forum, read books.
4)
when the FM (fanstatic manual) has no answer then ask other users.
5)
always sniff into other people work and recreate what they made. and if you ever make
something useful yourself, share it with others and help building the pool.
you can reach almost every aim with this method.
you might end up with something completely different from what was planned, but
that does not matter after all.
-110
@ 110,
Thanks for the input. I think I can do this. I mean if I can figure out what RTFM means just from the sentence context, then I must be smarter than the average bear.
I also just learned there are classes at my local university music conservatory. I just hope I don't have to play an instrument to qualify to learn...
-kos
Keep diggin' man, it'll change your life. First of all, it seems you'll have fun. Never go beyond fun.
It might change your style though, beware, the music you create might turn out to change the future, not the present, which might give you harder times to gain income as going with the mainstream, but for sure it will be more fun and more rewarding.
As with all craft, there is a learning curve, but one with fun as well. You'll get the aid you need, just ask for it...
I love your enthusiasm, I wonder where you'll go within the next year, share it with us, we're all curious...
Welcome!
And now get going, run through the tutorials, start your own weird stuff. I bet by the end of the 30 day trial, you'll stay with us for the rest of your life. (Sounds like a warning - is one...;-)
Good luck,
Stefan
@ Stefan,
Thanks for the feedback. I noticed you are sometimes Paris-based. It was a link or mention via the Sony music lab in Paris (after a full day of following web breadcrumbs) that lead me here to this treasure trove. Small world, eh?
As for changing my art, new tools have always done that. Without revolutionary pre-mixed oil paint in portable small metal tubes, the outdoor Expressionists would never have developed. How sad if we had been deprived of that boundary-ripping genre. But that's what you guys have here. Clear tubes of software that you can see to paint new programs.
Besides, the most enjoyable moment in the creative process is when you rise above both the tools and the canvas, and watch from above as if a third party observer as your hands move on their own with the tools and create beauty far beyond anything you could consciously preconcieve. I'm not woried about Max taking me outside the bounds of commercial audio/video, as there are periodic waves where what is popular becomes formulaic and is washed away by leaps forward to the cutting edge.
That's where new genres are born.
And by the way, if anyone ever needs some creative feedback (outside of programing), feel free to ask. I want to give as much as get.
I'm not sure when I'll start this journey, although I've already contacted a university that uses and teaches this to transfer there. I'm considering totally reshaping my life, and it will mean selling virtually everything I own at auction in order to be free to move out of the chains of possessions. Anyone else ever done that, and were you glad you did?
kos
P.S. Just how many is "all of us"? My first impression was this is a very small user family limited mostly to academia. Is this a tool not promoted to the public, was I just lucky to find it, or was I just not looking hard enough years ago?
youĀ“ll find everything around max, from straight academic to anti-academic.
the level of tolerance and respect between these factions is relatively high,
but it is not unlimited.
of course those on the academic path are totally wrong.
-110
@kosmik (and Roman; I'm rising to the obvious bait...)
One can learn simply by doing alone; but without guidance (whether in an academic context or not) the timescale is drastically extended - though to what degree will vary from learner to learner.
My tutors are/were all academics and included Eric Lyon and Maarten Walstijn, two highly regarded MaxMSP practitioners. Without their guidance I would have randomly staggered through the Max forest for years. I have found (as both learner and teacher) academic institutions developing a more Socratic approach to instruction which requires tutors skilled in both industry and academia, theory and practice.
Follow the excellent tutorials, Max first then MSP, and experiment as you go - build a little Calculator patch, a video-looper, a numeric-keypad synth - read Christopher Dobrian, Miller Puckette, Curtis Roads, Peter Elsea; watch Peter Bachelor and Baz on youtube..........
Brendan
@110,
I know you said that with a smile. The path or paths we take are often influenced by start, desired destination, and detours found or created-- and that doesn't include the influence of guides (academics) or fellow travellers. A good academic actually enjoys your viewpoint...
Just remember it is the summit that counts, not which side of the mountain we climb.
@brendan,
Thanks for the endorsed trailmarkers. I'll file them all away to savor. I've ordered in a case of duct tape for the constant headwrapping I've experienced for the last three days learning about so much and seeing repeated unlimited potential-- which I'm sure will continue for weeks, if not more. It seems Max/MSP/Jitter is what I was looking for years ago and never found.
They say that when the student is ready, the Master appears. In this case, it sounds and looks like there are a large family of Masters, and the language they all use is known as ehm-aye-echs.
Hello all, and show me the way, so that I may show others as well.
-kos
My eyes are seriously hurting. It seems like every time I follow a link or suggestion around here there are two or more serious links to more pieces in this puzzle, each with mouth-watering further discoveries they all point to.
Wow. Totally Unbelieveable. This could take a lifetime...
you've gone down the rabbit hole.....welcome to Wonderland!
:)
@ tim,
That's exactly the visual I had last night at 4 am. Exactly. EXACTLY!
At this rate, I'll be able to imagine and create an app that controls audio and video via the movement of a bicycle, or a human-powered twin wheel vehicle designed and built from specs created from light and sound.
Who said Cycling '74 does not make bicycles?
In essence, Max removes the word impossible from our vocabulary...
AAAAAAAaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... ... ...
Perhaps the concept of "option anxiety/envy" is a familiar one to a fellow researcher. So:
1. make your way through the Max tutorials, you'll be amazed at how far simple high school maths/design/art/music/I.T.(?) will take you.
2. make occasional forays into the MSP tutorials.
3. invent/design your own challenge patches: "how do I ..... ?"
4. early glances through Maurizio Giri's (et al) Electronic Music and Sound Design, Programming with MaxMSP reveal a very well structured course, with a wealth of theory and practice topics*.
Apologies if you've been somewhat 'overwhelmed' by my list of resources
Brendan
Hi Kosmik, welcome to Maxworld! The big attractions for me were that you could hang all kinds of nifty hardware off Max (kinda reminded me of PLC programming, only artistic) including webcams, or just go nuts trying out algorithmic compositional techniques. Four years down the line, I'm working on mashing it up with classical singing as well.
A couple of courses worked well for me (from Roald Baudoux who is also on these pages) with some programming background too.
Like the others say:
* The tutorials are your friend
* Keep doing it
* Figure out what you want to do as clearly as possible before programming
From an art and graphics POV you may enjoy checking out the Processing web-site, though it looks a bit more like hardcore programming ;)
Regards, Chris.
@ Brendan,
I think my severe headache stems from something closer to "posibility euphoria overload". three days and nights of near non-stop research here is the culprit. I'm grateful for your suggestions.
@ Chris,
Hoe Lee She Yat. I haven't even considered the hardware manipulation angle. So I make software to manipulate unique audio and video, and then use the same language to control the hardware either coming from , directed by or interacting with the audio and video.
Is there no end? Dare I ask just what/where is the Processing web site? I started out in graphics.
@Everyone,
My life is over. My life hast just begun.
-kos
i am sorry to tell you that the bicycle controlling audio already exists, someone
built that in 2002.
but it you actually manage to build a bike using live input you might become famous.
(not as famous as me probably, as i invented the invisible UFO)
@Roman,
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Crafted no doubt using that secret beefed-up, rip-snorting Non-Beta known as N-Vizzie Bull. Hey Ro, can you resend me the PDF Manual for your Invisible UFO ? The one that came with the software when I bought it from you was totally blank. Please transmit, or return the $999, as I'm stuck on this planet not by choice. I never saw you at the conference.
As for the Bike Builder, it doesn't seem impossible. Voice recognition lets the client chose his/her appropriate frame style and gearing, a video camera "measures" the client for proper frame sizing, and then four-color robo sprayers paint the frame according to the input of the rider's favorite song. And voila! C74 DOES build bicycles...
Well, I've dried out my keyboard after officially pausing my click-and-drool info searches, and started into the tutorials. Just three deep, and I know I'm gonna get this, but good.
How cool.
-kos
I for one spent a lot of time making beatboxy-kind of things, plus some visualizers, with Flash and Director. Not knowing about Max at that point... big mistake!
With all the improvements in Max 5, it's got a huge advantage over those platforms IMO. Of course there are pros and cons to everything, but Max really lets you make creative things which can readily go beyond just interesting toys. And it lets you make them *way faster, more powerful, and more flexible*. Oh yes. Welcome...!
@CJ,
I know what you mean. By just the second tutorial in Max we're way past my best labor-intensive Flashimation.
Control a RepRap (http://reprap.org/wiki/Main_Page) with Max, to build your bicycle, after it built itself, include some heavy neural net, and wait until your machine gathered enough intelligence by rebuilding itself to be able to write the script to the next Hollywood blockbuster featuring a young student getting into Max and Arduino to write his first "goodby World" program...
Btw. I am still trying to sell everything, but I advance only slowly, as new things add still...
For example I have some historical Max Manuals (out of real paper) to let. One is a black file with an original 2.x Manual, and I also have a 3.x Reference as book including an 3.5 Addendum, a "Getting started" and original key disks. Who ever wants to take this burden from me, the auction is started...;-)
Stefan
Hi Kosmik,
Well you can control hardware from Max, and one of my interests is to port over a robot control programme from VB6 (one of these days). The Maxuino connection to the Arduino controller offers plenty of scope for interfacing with real world devices. See
For my money, having hardware controlling stuff in Max is quicker to get on board with. For example, USB PS2 game pads (or even USB joysticks) are all recognised in MAX with the HI object (for human interface devices) often without even installing a driver (in Windows-land). From this, your control gestures create streams of numbers which you can feed into anything in Max which accepts numbers (quite a lot of things). For added entertainment, you can pull your gamepad apart and turn it into a custom hardware interface with four potentiometers and about twenty switches. Ditto old computer keyboards and Mice.
For some ideas on how you can interact with Max via Jitter and a webcam, look up the Cyclops object (somewhere on the c74 site).
Processing is at
Regards, Chris.
PS I'm all excited because I've just discovered beatboxing and realise I don't have to spend ages messing with Max to get funny vocal noises. Just ages practising funny noises.
@ Stefan,
Thanks for the lead to the "Replication Rapport". I've already got an idea to pull together many of my skills (art, music, video, writing, promo) into a single unique project.
As for the shedding, I've tried the slow route, and new aquisitions seem only moderated by funds available. Did you know the U.S. self-storage industry has larger revenues than even the entertainment industry? Why aren't there televised red carpet Storage Awards? I'd be in the running. The golden statuettes/ashtrays could be called "Junkies". Know what I mean?
In my case, it is a combination of diminishing time alive as well as loss of permanent oversized abode. The fight is the inquisitive nature of the past that lead me in so many differet avenues of information, but now the limitation of time and energy makes concentration and specialization a goal. If all that stuff is sold at auction that we haven't needed or even seen for 5 years, the freedom it opens far outweighs the "loss".
The other rationale is now anything can be repurchased on ebay at a later date. I've also heard of others just keeping a diogital image of all those "meaningful" items, so when you need the warm memory jigger, it's there. That's my kind of junk storage.
Oh, and frame those Max items, and use acid free paper. Believe me, these will only gain in value. What else coud be more interesting on the wall?
-kosmik
@ Chris,
Thanks for more great breadcrumbs to follow. Is the Processing program a sister version of Max? I read somewhere over the past few days someone from the early development of Max went away from it, and then came back later with a similar open source program. Is it accurate that Max was given up for dead long ago and was resurrected by someone with a longer vision? I love that if true.
As for the beatbox angle, will you get more YouBoob hits if you do a straight beatbox vid, or one that Max makes from animals making funny noises to wild, sound-controlled video effects and edits? Remember, uniqueness is the gas that rises most efforts to the top. (I JUST heard a wild Minnesota Snow Monkey scream from a performer on Prairie Home Companion!) Oooooh, Oooooh, Ahhh, Ahhh, Ahhh.
Let me know if you need a Creative Consultant.
-kos
@Kosmik
Sister version of Max is PD (pure data), processing is writing code, so no cool graphic interface. I only mentioned it because of the neat graphics people generate with it.
Don't know about a creative consultant, but there are days when I wonder if I could use a manager for the creative stuff.
Regards, Chris.
@ Chris,
I've been knee deep in exploring transferring to Ohio State to create a custom undergrad degree that would wrap around their Max courses, and pull in video, audio, performance and composing. I'm thinking of calling it DAVID for Digital Audio Video Interactive Design. Then they have a killer Grad research center that would be the knock-out punch. First I learn of Max, and now I find a custom undergrad degree program to make it sing. 2 much.
What do you think Processing can accomplish better than MMJV? What draws me here is Max does anything and everything. I'm all for a graphic interface, even if it takes a bit longer or more screen space. Lots of us makers think better visually, especially creatively. Didn't some old Chinese programmer have a tea shirt that said, "Won pix worth 1k words." Also, I always thought GUI (Gooey) stuck as a name early on because it sounded like the slime always associated with advanced alien life forms in sci-fi flix.
Manage the creative stuff? Hmmmn. Throw me one and let's see if I catch it.
kos
and i could need a creative slave, i.e. someone who writes
externals for me, and does serious testing for my max stuff.
since he is a slave, he is exspected to work for free.
you know how to contact me.
-110
p.s. you need a hotline client for the interview.
@110,
Creative slave? :) That's good. Kinda like Jumbo Shrimp and Military Intelligence, eh? I had a vision of being chained to a laptop.
You really ought to try to find someone who loves to do the things you don't, if you love what they hate. The Whole is greater than the sum of the two parts then, yes? It'll boost your horizons as well, as learning is all about association. That's why I'm here. I even learned from your reply about hotline servers. You all are light years ahead of me, but I'm gonna dig hard to catch up.
If I could do what you needed, I would. Edison's assistants were the real creators.
-kos
@ Baz,
That was an interesting link. I can imagine the result. The cha-chunk of my childhood 5 speed derailleur purple Murray banana seat bike (with mini simulated wood shifter console) changing gears, would easily slip into a techno beat track, let alone the Mickey Mantle baseball card flipping in the spokes.
Thanks for the tut lead, too. That's next.
-kos
-------------------------------------
@ Baz
THANX for the lead on your tutorials. I love your patter. I went back as far as I could, but it starts at 12, part three. Are your first tuts anywhere? I hope YouTube didn't cull or lose them. Bummer if they did. Digital Homicide is a crime. I've had it done to me. I was intentionally vaporized on a site without cause and lost a year of great work.
@kosmik
As the creator of the best renowned Max toots on youtube, I'm sure Baz would second a recommendation for Peter Bachelor's similarly excellent video toots.
Brendan
@baz
The "control" side of Max can seem really abstract, and thus tedious.
completely agree
Brendan
@ baz,
Sorry that my noob underwear is showing...
@ all,
They say the best way to learn is to do, and the second best is to teach. Thanks, everyone.
Also, am I right to understand that Max is the lego block for audio, with MSP kind of like pre-built vehicles and buildings, with the same for Jitter and Vizzie on the video side?
I'm also assuming they all integrate within a project using both audio and video in/around/out.
-kosmik
Max is control-rate lego
MSP is audio-rate lego
Jitter is frame-rate lego
Vizzie is a collection of Jitter-lego-macros :p
They all interact and crossover each other to some extent also ... and they all integrate completely within a patch.
///
I've learned a massive amount from browsing this forum and then trying to figure out answers for other people's questions :) I highly recommend it.
@kosmik
'noob underwear'
...excellent!
(Christ I'm turning this forum into Facebook!)
@ Tim,
So, the tools in the Max toolbox are like fast/slow, double/half, stretch/compress, in/out, randomize/order, appear/disappear, Emma Peel/John Steed, etc., etc., and are used on both MSP and Jitter, much like a Vise-grip will turn both a US bolt or a Metric bolt? Man this is heady stuff. I hope you all are still as awed by the power here as when you hadn't learned it yet.
I get the "browseaholiism" reference, and agree. I'm hooked and soakin' it in for hours at a time here, except in my case I'm still trying to read the answers to try to figure out the meaning of the questions.
---------
@n00b meister,
No you're not. I've read your responses and input on a variety of interesting posts. Facebook dreams of being this productive. I am surprised at how far this little thread has sewn itself, but I shouldn't be. That's why I feel at home here. If it hadn't I might not have gotten to those two great leads on the tutorials which I've already started into.
-------------
@all
The tuts ARE great. I'll fire up this thread again when I get my first REAL question. You know I've got months of homework ahead of me now.
Thanks everyone.
-kosmik
Hi All
I would also suggest you check out Jamoma (Modularised Max), CNMAT MMJ Depot, and FTM & Co . . .
Oh and Tap.Tools as well . .
Once you get through some of your current readings . . .
Cheers . . .
@Macciza (Music Tech Officer),
Sir,
Holy Hot Flashes, Batman. My brain is gonna go AWOL.
Seriously, I appreciate the input toward my education...
-kos
@Kosmik
The whole of max/msp/jitter is more like having a personal factory where you can create a universal auto-transformer vice that will fit anything ... no need for metric or imperial if one wants to experiment beyond convention ... like being a musical Tony Stark ...
I am still awed ... sadly though my imagination is on the fritz ... I need a kickstart somehow :-/ any tips? inspiration catalysts?
Sorry to read of your 'writer's block' Tim; these two (arbitrary choices) any good to you:
Brendan
cheers man ... need to get past my option paralysis :)
what I WANT to do, is experiment with using ultrasonic arrays for tactile feedback ...
... !!! ... awesome ...
but that has to wait til my pesky degree is done ... if only I was a little quicker, I could have done it for my dissertation
@Tim,
I'd be happy to try to help. First, think about what is your dream. You know, the one you think about while stuck in rush hour traffic. Then think about why you stopped working on it.
Outside the bounds of standard problem solving, I believe there are two secondary distinct forms of creativity. The first is Conscious Innovation. There are simple tools that prod the creative process. The simplest examples are things like doubling, halving, multiplying, subtracting, inverting, mirroring, cooling, warming, cloning, etc., etc. Another tool is to keep a recipe card file with bits that can be grabbed at random and combined with other cards. A salesman might use business cards of clients and suppliers to generate new contacts and possible new business. A writer might use random nouns, verbs and adjectives to create a starting point for a character or story. I have a file of my unfinished song titles, incomplete choruses and unused musical hooks. Depending on what you enjoy, you could start building a Max/MSP/Jitter/Vizzie library of unrelated nuggets that by shuffling could combine them in a way you would never have considered otherwise, and might lead to new projects.
The second is Unconscious Innovation. This is achieved by the subconscious making connections and solutions while not thinking about the problem. It is the invention dream that wakes you up at night, or the "ahh-ha" moment that interrupts whatever else you were thinking about.
You can do Standard Problem Solving all day long, but not get as far without also using Conscious and Unconscious Creativity. In order for the latter to work well, you need to stay alert to the processes and feed the brain with questions, info and wonder.
This language and forum is one of the best nugget mines I've ever fallen into, which is also why my brain pan is about to explode.
Take a look over your shoulder at how far you've come. I have no idea how deep you are into this, but you must be light years ahead of me. Re-examinine where you are on the journey you are taking, and if you seem stuck, you might have missed a turn or two, and you aren't getting any closer to where you want to go. That's assuming you had or have a target destination. If completely lost or stuck, do what I do. Take not the well beaten path, nor the road less travelled, but turn sharp and sure through the wilds where no paths of previous travelers exist. While in the wild, cast off the things you don't need that slow you down. Remember, possessions end up owning us, and suck precious time from the marrow of our being. Then, after you are refocused and renewed and you find your way ahead to a new and different road, you'll be ready to run.
Run program.
awesome post :) I think my unbeaten path is to take a break from computers for a while ... back to basics ... I need to do some more 3D living
@ Tim
You mean 4D.
3D would be without any movement.
Einstein (should've) said, "It takes Time to drink a beer."
p.s. sweet link..
:D
Actually I think I mean 5D ... gotta have some emotion in there somewhere or it's all pointless
I need to explore my 5th dimension
@Tim,
Your link was stellar. Hoist one for me and dance like hell. Stay out of the virtual rain.
@ n00bMeisterBrendan,
Incredible x 2. My keyboard is wet from salivation. I'm again at a loss for words at this program's creative products. It's Tesla-sized Future Shock.
@all,
I'm going to Wikipedia now and look-up the entry for Max, just to see how under described it is.
it is.
@ n00b,
A surprise gem hidden in the middle of the dazzling array of video thumbnails was this teeny tiny little link to an MIT post of a Computer Music Journal paper called "A Tutorial on Spectral Sound Processing Using Max/MSP/and Jitter" by Jean-Francois Charles. A heady PDF it is. (Gasp) It sounds like he wrote it for me. Thank you, n00ber.
your avatar and your language strongly suggested that you are
already one of us when you came here.
the learning and the traning of the actual programming language
maxmsp is only the other 30%.
-110
@ 110
You don't know how much I appreciate your very kind words. I would guess most Maxers (?) have a history of being both visionary and creative, and have carried the burden of being a long-view outsider in a nearly blind world. My partner was just talking about a lifetime of interaction with non-artists who can never "see" or support a concept, and must be shown real world 2 or 3D models or examples before understanding and supporting a good idea. We all seek to belong, and it seems to me that here is a paradise of creative ideas, innovative usage, warm respect for mentors, encouragement of achievement, and love of teaching, sharing and learning. Thanks for letting me in where the real party is.
And if you have any doubt that programmers are artists, I can assure you they are. They not only create the painting, but they make their own brushes, paints and canvases as well.
By the way, my avatar is a federal crime. It is a crop from a recent 12" x 12" canvas aerosol spray painting which includes the previously free United States Post Office Priority Mail sealing tape I was using as a mask, and I decided to leave on on purpose. I'll let you know if I ever need bail money for it.
-kos
that a piece of arts is the thing on the meta layer (and not the thing
you can touch) can naturally only be understood by artists (and a very
few consumers) which were in touch with arts concepts which did not
exist on the physical layer at all (poetry, fluxus ... there is nothing
you could touch but there still seems to be something...)
if someone sees a flashmob from young people who are massbuying
cheeseburgers he has three options how he can look at it.
he can say "oh wow, i am in the middle of a flashmob, how cool",
or he can ask "why the hell are they doing this?"
he could also ask and enjoy at the same time.
but if he only sees "oh look, there many people which are buying
cheezeburgers" he has lost us and will be a police officer for the
rest of his wasted life.
when i came to maxmsp friends had to convince me that my dumb
self also will be able to program, because i was fighting the idea.
one of them told me i should read a text from someone interesting
called "painters and hackers".
i did not read it.
i used maxmsp (and did about 17 other new things) for a few years,
and then i wrote (yes i write sometimes, but only in german) a little
philosophical teaser on the relationship between language and
counciousness and how the use of computers and programming
languages can change your ideas, and i was using my custom
definition of the term "hacker" as a psychopathological and social
object of observation as an example.
then i read that text "painters and hackers" from that boring guy
who was said to be to be officially interesting and it was a bit
like a dejavu, because the guy wrote the same shit that i wrote.
i almost sued him for CI.
-110
@Kos
Sounds like you're on a wonderful learning journey! Custom courses eh? Best of luck with it all :)
Processing: I wouldn't say it's better necessarily, just that they link to some interesting projects, particularly in the visual arts. As for me, I'm more inclined to try and learn Python, in order to do a couple of things (some in Max). I anticipate a protracted learning curve interspersed with much distraction.
@110,
Keep up with the English, Herr Roman. You write better than some American college students. If my German was as good as your English, I'd be there for the music scene. I lived in Munchen for three years as a child, but came away knowing only a few drinking songs. I got lost as a kindergarten kid at Oktoberfest, and discovered the beauty of buxom young beer maids who lavished on me sweet pretzels and kisses.
@ chrisbob,
Another language? What exactly for, bro?
@all,
OK, how about this idea. Submit your suggestions for the top 20 links to go on what we'll call "Max Impact: The top 20 Max/MSP/Jitter/Vizzie links to make a noob drool." When complete, we can stick it somewhere easily found so many more can follow the breadcrumbs into the woods...
@Tim
I find Oblique Strategies often help - or the jcom.eno modular version . . .
@Kosmik
For another language you might look at SuperCollider as well . . .
Cheers
MM
@Kos
Python for testing out some ideas on machine learning which are impractical to implement directly in Max. Python was recommended by someone whose opinion I respect in these matters, and it looked like a good fit for me. FWIW, there's a route to use Python in Max.
Max is brilliant at some things, but it also offers the opportunity to graft in stuff which is better done in other environments.
Plus, I like learning new things - it keeps me sharpish. On the other hand, I'm easily distracted :)
@chrisbob, if you're into machine learning and Python, get "Programming Collective Intelligence" by Toby Segaran. That book absolutely blew my mind and sounds like it would fit your interests. The Table of Contents alone is a total mind-opener...
Great thread and am pleased to see it continuing!
@seejayjames - many thanks for the tip
@Macciza,
I looked into Supercollider, which lead me to the BEAST, which eventually landed me at the Ambisonics pages.Very good stuff right up my alley, and I'd never heard of them. It was all a trip with lots of bookmarks.
@ chrisbob,
Python was way too big of a snake for me to handle. I'm envious. It had a death grip around my brain stem. Give me a few years. Remember, I'm a babe in the woods.
@seeyajames,
Table of contents was packed. Is that book a read a non-programmer could handle and follow? One could data mine for audio and video values for composition and video generation, and then market it all more effectively.
@ roman,
What interesting things might be done interlocking MAX with poetry? It could both generate words, and create the images around them. input a word for the title, and then what happens? the finished piece is audio/video with digital genes. Could be a whole new art form.
Does anyone have a connection to '74's President David Zicarelli, or know who is in charge of marketing/promotion? I have a time-sensitive promo idea that is zero-cost and will raise the brand awareness of MAX both among users and the general public for years to come.
zl, the king of objects
poetry, not sure. not with computers.
there are limits where computers work.
jvkr,
Spooky name, BTW. Code translation? What's it for?
Roman,
The beauty and power of poetry often resides in the spaces between the words. The MAXed poem could be interactive, with every other word supplied by the computer. And just like real human poets, not every poem is great or even good.
roman,
there are limits
where computers work
there are limits
where humans work
there are no limits
where humans
work computers