Help to know the true peak level within Max
Hello,
I have some doubts about record sounds in Max with a true peak meter to know at which dBFS is the result within Max and in the sound editor.
I am using the Youlean Loudness Meter plug it after another AU, between the live.gain~ and the ezdac~ like this:
AU plugin IN > live.gain~ OUT > AU plugin OUT > Loudness Meter IN > Loudness Meter OUT > ezdac~ IN.
Is that ok?.
Also I do not know why the Loudness Meter increases the overall volume.
When I open it with the wrench icon to see which is the highest peak it does not belong to the value of the recording in the sound editor loading the same plugin, the difference is more or less 3 dB. Please, Anyone can help?.
if that loudness meter changes the gain, throw it away.
Unless it has some parameter to do that, which is set to boost the signal.
realtime measurements are allways tricky against offline audio analysis,
more complicated the measure tool, more chance for novice to set it wrong
or missinterpret the readings.
I would simply avoid getting any clipped samples in max while recording,
and use meter~ set to 10 ms interval for that.
and also avoid any dynamics tweaking to reach any kind of loudness.
and edit the files later in audio editor offline.
Again many thanks Source Audio.
Just one question, Where do you recommend to put the meter~?, In the outputs of the plugin?.
I changed the true peak plugin in Max and in the sound editor the difference is more or less 2 dB, Is that right?.
you need level control and meter~ directly before recording inputs.
There you need to check for clipped samples.
meter is not true clip meter but simple level meter.
keep your highest peaks at least 1 db before clipping to be sure.
It is easy to normalize it later.
difference between max measured and analysed peak should not exceed
0. 2 - 0.5 db.
But I have no idea whaqt you measure in that sound editor
In the sound editor I measure the true peak level too. I was wrong, it is as you mentioned with the meter~object. Thx.
Just one thing, How is it measuring the float number of he meter~output?. For example, What indicates a value of 0.207?
With this setting the LoudnessAnalyzer measures -6.73 dB.
2db difference sounds like a lot.
while TP ("true") usually means ISP ("inter sample") - which means < 0.0 - the difference should not be that big, because i think if any of the values meter~ is outputting is right, then it is the red light for any sample > 0.0.
many DAWs and hardware units otoh will only show the red light for 2 or 3 samples > 0.0
to translate analog float output from meter to db scale
insert atodb .
And as Roman states, peak - true peak could only make difference of few fractions of a decibel.
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I never use live.gain~ object, in fact I dislike ANY live gui object.
take a look here, it is easy to get cheated with that stuff
Thanks for the answers.
Then, Source Audio, What do you recommend instead live.gain~ to control and measure the audio?, Something like this to use it as Stereo? :
patch you posted has only single ezdac~ object inside ?
To set audio levels - depends what your needs are.
I use martix~ for most gain or volume controls, as it has ramp time,
can control any number of I/O and is more efficient against most gui objects.
measuring as on the screenshot.
that's it
you can use db to set level too ...
Am I doing something wrong with the ezdac~object?, Needs more than one?. Please, Can you explain the 0 0 $1, 1 1 $1?.
is it sooo difficult to read max help files ?
Look in matrix help file.
0 0 $1 means route input 0 to output 0 with changeable argument.
comma between 2 lists means send them one after another.
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I meant that your last posted patch where you ask if you should use
"Something like this to use it as Stereo?"
had only a single ezdac object inside and nothing else to look at.
Excuse my ignorance, I am new to Max/MSP. Thanks for the help.
I am doing in the way that you tell me Source Audio with a sample that changes a lot dynamically and the dbtoa does not belong to the meter~output atodb, What I am doing wrong?. With the cycle~ example all is ok. Is about the display interval?. Also it does not match with the Quickrecord meter.
your guess goes in the right direction, such things happen in many situations, but meter~ is not the troublemaker here, it is using a slow cosine tone as test signal.
no matter how the GUI and rate of meter are set, it will always output the maximum sample value within the last measurement period.
you can test like this:
Thanks for reply Roman. I've tested it and I understood a bit more.
Please, Can you tell me what exactly is the function of the message max 4 of the Source Audio's example?. I understand that it is the maximun value of something, but when I rise the dbtoa float to more than 0. it starts to clip (red meters) as it is logical.
So far what is clear to me using the Source Audio's example is that with a sample with dynamics changes the dbtoa float at 0. and the atodb shows the recording dB maximum peak measurent. I've also tested with peak 0. with atodb as "translator".
'min 0,max 4' is described in the helpfile for the 'number' box to which that message is attached(option(mac) or alt(windows) + click on any object is a shortcut to get to its helpfile... this is why Source_Audio already asked you to learn checking those first - you'll be doing everyone a favor including yourself... Roman and Source have better and more important things to do).
getting this basic help on messages sent to objects from the objects' helpfiles is covered in the most basic tutorial of all time for max:
https://docs.cycling74.com/max8/tutorials/basicchapter01
the rest of your questions are easily answered by going through the most basic of msp tutorials:
https://docs.cycling74.com/max8/tutorials/00_mspindex
the main page you could start from is here, the tutorials are important:
https://docs.cycling74.com/max8
Roman and Source are some of the best help you'll find here, but they're not here to substitute for going through the documentation(they deserve better respect than that).
What you've gotten so far for this thread is the best help these forums have to offer you on this particular topic until you've read the docs 🍻
Ok Raja, you have reason. It is not my intention to make it difficult for anyone to help. However sometimes the help files are a bit confusing, but yeah, I will think before move.
I can understand that, and I appreciate your effort overall.
just to offer some additional advice:
-after checking helpfiles and reference pages for objects, if you still have trouble, you can also mention on these forums what you’ve checked and this can also help everyone identify the lack of clarity better(for example, “i’ve checked [so-and-so object’s] helpfile and reference and can’t seem to find this answer”… then people can give you a more focused answer, otherwise, it can be frustrating if others check the helpfile and find the answer easily for you)).
-often the ’reference‘ page for objects will give your more than helpfiles(such as attributes which can also be used like regular messages for some objects, but might not show up in helpfiles alone). Along with reference pages are the object’s inspector, and much of what’s in the inspector will be explained on the reference page(with exception of certain things general to multiple objects like especially with jitter objects - this’ll be more a matter of going through tutorials). You can get to ‘reference’ pages for objects by right-clicking on the object to get the contextual menu specific for objects, or use the yellow-triangle which shows up when you mouse over the object’s left-side while patchers are unlocked, or even go from the helpfile, and click the ‘?’ tab found at the top of each helpfile. The reference pages often help people go from beginner to intermediate level pretty quickly(just requires practice to look through those: like any language practice will make these things pass from short-term memory into long-term memory and you’ll be floating over all these hurdles with ease in no time).
Most of all: thank you for continuing to be a patient learner and participant here :)
for a #reason i understand anyone who does not like to learn from /tutorials, /examples, or "read the manual" at all, but the object help and object reference are inevitable (and normally everyone should be told that in the max startup screen.)
if you think the in-app reference looks too clumsy on your screen, then use the online reference by typing "cycle max reference" into google. in a web browser it is easier to keep 15 of them open all the time and hide/show them with a single click.
understanding your topic (for example the difference between gain, loudness, power and peak) is a completely other story than knowing the vanilla max objects and the max app itself, and if you combine both in a single, monolithic "how do i do it and why" question things are getting complicated, because even a readymade patch in "best practice" style will eventually not teach you much.
but dont worry, the more you know about one of these domains, the faster you will learn on the other.