key frame - synch/automation in jitter

so it's very archaic, but my workaround is to store upstream the theoretical frame number for a given simplified time cue, like for each whole minute, at a base of 30fps. It loses fluidity on the jitter side a bit but the project was going to be renderd at 30fps anyway.

This allows you to scrub in live by subsections before meetings cues which will reset to the right corresponding frame counter at the other end.

Like I said, it is super archaic. But I don't see a way to track the jit.world fps variation throughout a writing project where it will vary unexpectedly. Also main interest is in term of workflow itself to avoir playing the whole project from beginning to get the right positioning etc.

any other suggestions?

Port your patches to TouchDesigner, if you don't want to waste time ;-)
I am still wondering about why there are not more people missing a keyframe editor in MAX and a decent sync solution to Ableton Live

I tried a lot of things in MAX regarding keyframe editing https://cycling74.com/forums/editor-for-keyframe-animation.
I had lot's of hope with the new features of the [mtr] object, but currently it is too buggy or is lacking features
https://cycling74.com/tutorials/best-practices-in-jitter-part-2-recording-1/replies/1#reply-5f9ae44ca9daae2b710a9f58

https://cycling74.com/forums/-feature-request-mtr-binding-to-mc-function-for-display-and-editing-of-event-data

But to be more on spot to your questions:

A) I think you may benefit from sending bangs to [jit.world @enable 0] from Ableton Live instead of [jit.world @enbable 1] running its own clock.

B) If you can afford it (in my case it doesn't work because Ableton Live already consumes 10%-20% ofmy GPU) you could use only MAX for Live to get rid of OSC or UDP headaches.

C) I think in the LOM https://docs.cycling74.com/max8/vignettes/live_object_model you will find some topics regarding transport. Or have a look at the TDA_Master m4l-patch from TDAbleton-package in TouchDesigner. - Also [transport] object should work in MAX for Live

man sorry i missed you post! we are on the same page.
I think most of users make real time random algorithmic stuff . But when it comes to really write a full piece made of timed procedural things and synch with sound it's another story.

Most of the time i record small parts and edit in other software - but then you lost the interest of generative material , and for projects that needs a precise writing and the whole perspective of progression it's necessary to stay in the generative world. Automate an entire piece although requiring a gigantic work, offers the advantage among a lot to be able to edit and improved the work.

Thanks for the advices. I havent tried the bangs to jit.word. Actually for some reasons like saving ressources, my control (Ableton) machine is on a mac, and jitter runs on its own gpu on windows. They are linked through m4l and osc. I have tried some lom tricks, but damn like the transport objets seems to be too unprecised and irregular to calibrate a smooth fps. But i will give a deeper look then.

For now i created a track on ableton that trigs each 15sec the corresponding frame count at a rate of 30fps and sent it to a counter in jitter to synch all process depending on that count while the jit.world is also set synch 0 to 30fps.
But i definitely agree, this is a huge lack in max/jitter, something that make its use in the synch world with sound for instance very complicated.
thx!!

In TouchDesigner it is only 3 clicks to set a keyframe for a parameter and then you can edit it in a comfortable curve editor. I wish this would be possible with MAX. But I guess without many users writing feature requests to the Cycling Support this won't happen.

But also if such an editor would be available there remains the question of synchronisation to external processes.

my control (Ableton) machine is on a mac, and jitter runs on its own gpu on windows

Yes this also my setup.

I gave up to record all automation in Ableton Live for complex patches containing hundreds of parameters. I try to keep most of the automation inside MAX - [pattrstorage @subscribemode 1] all relevant parameters have scripting names. I interpolate between presets by sending float values from Live to [pattrstorage]. ([mtr @bindto] provided it is bug free and compatible to [pattrstorage @subscribemode 1] would be even more helpful for this.)

I use a modified Envelope Follower M4L patch and send triggers generated from it to trigger processes in Jitter ( [mc.function] in my case only a few seconds duration). I don't know if this works for your use case.

In order to reset counters if I scrub through the timeline I use information from [transport] in a M4L patch e.g. raw ticks. I trigger the [transport] with half the interval my Jitter runs at (eg. transport triggered by [qmetro 8] and [jit.wolrd @fps 60] (Different to my suggestion from the previous post I let Jitter run with the [jit.world] clock, just because it works for my use cases.)

just curious, have either of you tried something like Vezér ? - https://imimot.com/vezer/

or ossia score ? - https://ossia.io

i typically use Qlab to control my max projects, because i have less a need for keyframe curves and more of a need for cue organization and control.

hi rob,
yeah i know both of them and also use qlab. Qlab is good as you said for scene kind of things (when it triggers pre. rendered material for instance). I do not have actually any trouble to trig stuff from ableton in jitter with maxforlive even curved parameters that are ok to say "approximate". As long you create your own osc device in m4l it would work as vezer or qlab would do (vezer has nice curves and ease presets though). My pb is really in terms of synch for things, that uses a value correlated to the frame count . As everyone i use a lot of fonctions to move things and camera like this very basic example :

It really works based on frame count of course , to whatever the fps is. But. It very hard to synch on a frame count from another media... if the fps is not stable. That's why people made smtpe right? let say i have some music playing and i need that the position of the cam at minute one should be at an exact position and exact frame count with the world synch to it.

Let say i use the transport info in ableton in ticks and convert it in ms and then frame and report it to jitter so it will follow that counter and not the one triggered by the world, then as the first little fps irregularity, it will create an offset and the camera will haha jitter

My solution is to force a threshold value of fps (synch 0 @fps 30), then convert frame value for each 10 or 15 sec and have it sent to this jitter counter from value placed on ableton time line - so i can scrub in live and will be sure what's played in jitter will be the same position in the pattern i ve asked. Not sure im clear.

that's why a key frame editor will help to define curved value in a time line in max, and then we can settle down a smtpe count to ensure it will synch to it

i tried to bang the jit.world from another counter as Martin suggested but doesn't seem to work. Could be a direction though to synch a jit.world to an external counter-media, like.. ableton for instance. So we have the jit.world sending bang to a counter with the same value that comes from live.

Hello Fraction,

just to make sure I understand your problem.
This doesn't work for you?

yeah if the problem is simply keeping synch with ableton, can't you use Martin's example above to convert the ticks to milliseconds (via the translate object) and then from their to frames or whatever you like?

I fail to see how smpte is in any way useful to Jitter.