ryan7585

I quit my job to pursue a career in M4L plugin design. I am aware that sounds insane to you, but I chose to give it my full effort and make it happen. I've gotten the opportunities I've sought, and it's working out better than my more realistic side thought it would.

Except for one thing. Fucking. Crashes. What the FUCK do I have to do to make this FUCKING program stop crashing for fUCKS SAKE, FUCK.

I'm not trying to devalue to work you guys have done making the program, it's great-- seriously, thank you. But I'm trying to make a living here, and I will sometimes lose 16 hours of work, just because max will suddenly decide it no longer will let me use API objects.. or that my 10ms snapshot object is suddenly too much of a load, when every other time it has been fine.

I have REDONE multiple dozens of hours of plugin design work, entirely because the program wont just STAY OPEN..... Is there no interrupt function for stack overflows? How does ANY program crash this much? I honestly don't understand so tell me if you know, to help save me at least some frustration.

Once again, not devaluing your work. Its just, my arms hurt, from staying up two nights in a row every sleep cycle for the past 8 months, repeating work, and repeating it again, then going outside to smash 10000 cinder blocks with a sledgehammer, then repeating it again.

Max 7, 6 and 5 all installed, all do it. Tried the whole preferences file dealy. Adobe programs not running at startup. Have tried reinstalling, several times. Have tried installing on different computers entirely. Tried deleting EVERY unccesary program to free RAM space.

I'm not joking, my arms seriously do hurt. I can't pay my bills because I can't finish my work. Not everyone seems to have this problem.

I quit my job to pursue a career in M4L plugin design. I am aware that sounds insane to you, but I chose to give it my full effort and make it happen. I've gotten the opportunities I've sought, and it's working out better than my more realistic side thought it would. 

Except for one thing. Fucking. Crashes. What the FUCK do I have to do to make this FUCKING program stop crashing for fUCKS SAKE, FUCK. 

I'm not trying to devalue to work you guys have done making the program, it's great-- seriously, thank you. But I'm trying to make a living here, and I will sometimes lose 16 hours of work, just because max will suddenly decide it no longer will let me use API objects.. or that my 10ms snapshot object is suddenly too much of a load, when every other time it has been fine. 

Once again, not devaluing your work. Its just, my arms hurt, from staying up two nights in a row every sleep cycle for the past 8 months, repeating work, and repeating it again, then going outside to smash 10000 cinder blocks with a sledgehammer, then repeating it again. 

Max 7, 6 and 5 all installed, all do it. Tried the whole preferences file dealy. Adobe programs not running at startup. Have tried reinstalling, several times. Have tried installing on different computers entirely. Tried deleting EVERY unccesary program to free RAM space. 

I'm not joking, my arms seriously do hurt. I can't pay my bills because I can't finish my work. Not everyone seems to have this problem. 

relentless-fury-inducing-life-ruining-crashes

Well, I'm not much of a help in m4l terms, but in all programming/making I do on computers I save often. I save versions of everything. My backups are as automatic as I can make them. At work (Pro Tools sessions for television), I save at least once a minute. If I do something new in a max project, I save it with a new filename. That way, you can always walk back to when it still worked. You should not lose hours of work, is what I'm saying.

As for the source of your errors, can you tell what operating system you're on? Is your machine a dedicated development machine or is it running all kinds of crap? I'm on a 5 year old Macbook Pro with the latest OSX and 8 GB of RAM and I must say Max crashes very seldom. What version of Live are you using? Is it a legal instalment without all kinds of nonsense being installed? If you are serious about the day job being m4l development, I would get myself a dedicated machine or at least make my machine boot several os'es, of which one is a clean dedicated development os with everything as light and stable as possible. As an example: I do a sound effects program for work, where we rely on. This is all Code::Blocks, wxWidgets, etc. I run this on a dedicated Windows XP OS that runs inside Parallels. I have detached this Windows XP from the internet. I don't ever update the OS. It is very stable.

Good luck, and kudos for making a living out of plugin development. It must be wonderful to be a self starter.

I have a macbook pro. 5 years old. Max works perfectly on that machine. M4l as well. I get maybe 1 to 2 crashes a month.

Maybe its an idea to post a list with your WHOLE setup.

Os. Pc or mac. Is all the software legal ? Is m4l 64 bit or 32 bit ? What soundcard do you use ?

My macbook ONLY has software on it that i use. No games or crap like that.

It also runs perfectly on a custom desktop pc.

Do you have a virus ? A good virus scanner ?

As you can see your one of the unlucky few to have these problems and it must be something with your computer. The software is good.

I have a macbook pro. 5 years old. Max works perfectly on that machine. M4l as well. I get maybe 1 to 2 crashes a month.
Maybe its an idea to post a list with your WHOLE setup.
Os. Pc or mac. Is all the software legal ? Is m4l 64 bit or 32 bit ? What soundcard do you use ?
My macbook ONLY has software on it that i use. No games or crap like that.
It also runs perfectly on a custom desktop pc.
Do you have a virus ? A good virus scanner ?
As you can see your one of the unlucky few to have these problems and it must be something with your computer. The software is good.
Lets try and help you figure it out.


Maybe one of your vst plugins is the problem. External ones. Try telling live that your plugins map is an empty folder and see if you still have the same problem.

Hm yes saving often is the only secure way. I also experience a lot of crashes with live9 and m4l7 recently. I feel it happens more often than it did with max6. Still I can live with that...

Discussing instability in the abstract isn't very helpful. If you have a particular device or patcher which causes crashing, even sporadically, you should get in touch with support (at) cycling74 (dot) com and send your example, along with instructions for trashing Max.

The fact that your crashing spans several versions (5, 6, 7) suggests the possibility that some 3rd party resource (an external or plugin) is the actual cause of your problems, rather than the core software. But again, without anything concrete to talk about, it's all just speculation.

I'm using Windows 7 on both machines.... Both are on the internet, and are used for personal things as well. I know that's usually not adviseable, but I do keep them clean of ad-ware and trojans, plus I'm not really doing anything too "hard" for the computer... Usually it's not even sample-level processing, just basic scheduler stuff, and no feedback loops or anything.

Two specific issues I can bring up are with live.remote~, and jit.catch~. Can't use LFO or Envelope Follower at all any more, and they're my favorite features of Max :(

I'm using Windows 7 on both machines.... Both are on the internet, and are used for personal things as well. I know that's usually not adviseable, but I do keep them clean of ad-ware and trojans, plus I'm not really doing anything too "hard" for the computer... Usually it's not even sample-level processing, just basic scheduler stuff, and no feedback loops or anything. 

Two specific issues I can bring up are with live.remote~, and jit.catch~. Can't use LFO or Envelope Follower at all any more, and they're my favorite features of Max :(


That's not specific enough, I'm afraid. Those objects work in general -- lots of people use them on a daily basis without crashing. So we'll need actual patchers which crash, along with your system information, and instructions for reproduction.

Like i said before post a list of your gear and software. If you really want help with this problem then maybe its an idea to follow the suggestions on the forums.

Like i said before post a list of your gear and software. If you really want help with this problem then maybe its an idea to follow the suggestions on the forums.
Be specific.


I drag the stock LFO or envelope follower onto a track, Live crashes right away. I open the blank m4l audio device, add a bpatcher, reference the stock signal-to-API patcher... and live crashes. System info is irrelevant-- tried on 4 different computers: 2 windows 7 laptops, a 2009 macbook, and a dell desktop (also windows 7). The macbook is old so I didnt except much, but the windows computers all have over 4Gb RAM and 3 Ghz processor, plenty of hard drive space.

And if you want a dedicated machine for just this consider getting a mac mini. I still believe that the mac os is one of the most stable systems you can have. You dont need a powerful system to build audio devices. Dual core is more than adequate.

If you want me to be more specific than that, tell me specifically what to be specific about please! Thanks for the help guys

System info is relevant as its the heart of what drives your software. Do you use an external sound card ? My presonus firestudio had problems at 1st with max. A firmware update fixed it and it works perfectly since then.

Really, the problem is not as much that Max itself crashes, but that it causes Live to crash

Read my post from earlier. I gave a clear description of what you should list.

Is your version of live legal AND up to date ?

I just dragged both LFO and Envelope Follower onto a track without any problem using Live 9.1.7 32-bit / Max 7.0.1. I absolutely believe that you are experiencing trouble, so don't get me wrong -- I really want to help. But there's clearly something else at work on your machine(s). The crashlogs on OSX tend to be fairly helpful, if you could provide the Live crasher.

We do need to know if you're using 64-bit versions of the software, maybe some information about your graphic card (both of those devices use OpenGL for waveform drawing).

I have an external sound card, but I don't usually use it while patching.. still, I haven't noticed any improvement when using the sound card. I will try a firmware update.... Not sure exactly how that could be related to API functions though, that's not audio information.. I'll see if it helps though, thanks!

Its not about audio information. Its about the core of the system. Try unplugging the sound card first, use the internal sound card, if theres no problems then you know what the cause is.

I keep asking for a hardware software list because then I can help you to google any issues. Without that data no one can point out any particular known problems.

It takes two minutes to put it all together. If your this frustrated (which is understandable) then just post the list and take the help thats offered.

Its not about audio information. Its about the core of the system. Try unplugging the sound card first, use the internal sound card, if theres no problems then you know what the cause is.
I keep asking for a hardware software list because then I can help you to google any issues. Without that data no one can point out any particular known problems.
It takes two minutes to put it all together. If your this frustrated (which is understandable) then just post the list and take the help thats offered.


I've also pulled LFO and Envelope Follower onto tracks with no problems whats so ever. Live 9.1.1. max 7.01. Mac osx mavericks.

Do you have midi software running in the background like midi yoke ?

I've also pulled LFO and Envelope Follower onto tracks with no problems whats so ever. Live 9.1.1. max 7.01. Mac osx mavericks.
Do you have  midi software running in the background like midi yoke ?


Its just the internal sound card most of the time when patching... The external card is a Steinberg CI2.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7A1Q-x45Uf8MWJURVpVR2VZXzg/view?usp=sharing

And a screenshot of my programs list --- 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7A1Q-x45Uf8cC13NGZyLXVsVEE/view?usp=sharing

Its just the internal sound card most of the time when patching... The external card is a Steinberg CI2. 

Here's a screenshot of my system info-- https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7A1Q-x45Uf8MWJURVpVR2VZXzg/view?usp=sharing

And a screenshot of my programs list --- https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7A1Q-x45Uf8cC13NGZyLXVsVEE/view?usp=sharing

Ableton live isn't up to date, your on version 9.0. You need 9.1.1 for the bug fixes.

Update that and see if the problem still persists.

avast is not a reliable piece of software(plus your malware software !) , I'd recommend getting nod eset 32 antivirus home edition, why ? because Avast misses a hell of a lot of infections. Nod eset is the best, hands down

You shouldn't ever be using a real time application with a virus scanner as it makes a lot of calls to the memory and drive of the computer.

Update live, you've got basically got an alpha version.

Are you using M4L 64 bit ? if so put it back to 32 bit, 64 bit only has a point if your making something that can use over 16 gig of RAM .

Ableton live isn't up to date, your on version 9.0. You need 9.1.1 for the bug fixes.
Update that and see if the problem still persists.
avast is not a reliable piece of software(plus your malware software !) , I'd recommend getting nod eset 32 antivirus home edition, why ? because Avast misses a hell of a lot of infections. Nod eset is the best, hands down
You shouldn't ever be using a real time application with a virus scanner as it makes a lot of calls to the memory and drive of the computer.
Update live, you've got basically got an alpha version.
Are you using M4L 64 bit ? if so put it back to 32 bit, 64 bit only has a point if your making something that can use over 16 gig of RAM .


alright. Max 7 is 64 bit AND Max 6, that could be your culprit.

re-install the 32 bit versions. Plug ins in live can have a lot of problems if they're 32 bit and the system is 64. Live should also be 32 bit.

Thats guaranteed stability if everything is 32 bit.

I do a hell of lot of real time processes with my computer (8 gig) and 32 bit is perfect.

alright. Max 7 is 64 bit AND Max 6, that could be your culprit.
re-install the 32 bit versions. Plug ins in live can have a lot of problems if they're 32 bit and the system is 64. Live should also be 32 bit.
Thats guaranteed stability if everything is 32 bit.
I do a hell of lot of real time processes with my computer (8 gig) and 32 bit is perfect.


check this for why 32 bit is more reliable

https://www.ableton.com/en/articles/64bit-myths-facts/

check this for why 32 bit is more reliable
https://www.ableton.com/en/articles/64bit-myths-facts/


Both Live and Max (and Max for Live) are stable in 64-bit, although I agree that it's overkill for most purposes (if you need to use more than 4GB of RAM for a single process, you'll want to use the 64-bit version). You are running the most recent versions of Max 6 & 7. Live's version number is possible to know from the programs list -- please ensure that you are using 9.1.7, as Andro mentioned. Note that you can only use 64-bit Max with 64-bit Live -- the software ensures that, so there's no chance that you are mixing and matching. That's all fine.

Note that some of 32-bit Max's video features are not supported in 64-bit mode due to the non-existence of 64-bit QuickTime. Both Max and Live currently use DirectShow for 64-bit video playback.

I tested those devices in Live 9.1.7 x64 with a recent 64-bit Max and had no trouble, by the way.

Whichever virus protection you are using, you should consider excluding the Max program directory from any live scanning -- Max opens a lot of files/libraries in its install directory and a live scanner can slow you down.

It would be interesting to know how your system responds to this: 

http://www.realtech-vr.com/glview/download.php

 . Try running the test suite and ensure that you don't crash. Click on the Report tab and attach the results in a text file, please.

Finally, do you have a bunch of additional stuff in your Max search path? As in packages, 3rd party externals or abstractions, etc.? Some problems can occur if you have, for instance, a file named, for instance, 'counter' in your search path which is found before the object 'counter'. Since you have the problem on multiple machines, it could be related to these 3rd party elements which you presumably have installed on all of them...

Both Live and Max (and Max for Live) are stable in 64-bit, although I agree that it's overkill for most purposes (if you need to use more than 4GB of RAM for a single process, you'll want to use the 64-bit version). You are running the most recent versions of Max 6 & 7. Live's version number is possible to know from the programs list -- please ensure that you are using 9.1.7, as Andro mentioned. Note that you can only use 64-bit Max with 64-bit Live -- the software ensures that, so there's no chance that you are mixing and matching. That's all fine. 

It would be interesting to know how your system responds to this: http://www.realtech-vr.com/glview/download.php . Try running the test suite and ensure that you don't crash. Click on the Report tab and attach the results in a text file, please.

As a general rule, I have to second the request that our crashing user package up all the appropriate M4L code and a *complete* list of software running in Ableton/M4L, and a *complete* system info dump (they made it so easy...) and !send it to Jeremy!. He will not steal your great idea! But here I see a frustrated developer who knows a great deal, and *wants* to help, but is still guessing what the heck the failure *is*: hard to triage when there is no symptom description other than "it crashes".... just saying this as a software guy who has been an active "software support" developer for over 10 years: help those who desire to help you!

And of course, this is *not* an attack leveled at our poor crashing user... but a general call for sanity and kindness in software support!

PS: ok, *this* you can get p.o'ed at :-) : Windose sucks! Get with a real os that might be fractionally slower, but infinitely superior in operation: can you quickly pull up all the low level console output of any crash on your system? Std. App in OS X. Big help for error triage. Just sayin'...

As a general rule, I have to second the request that our crashing user package up all the appropriate M4L code and a *complete* list of software running in Ableton/M4L, and a *complete* system info dump (they made it so easy...) and  !send it to Jeremy!. He will not steal your great idea! But here I see a frustrated developer who knows a great deal, and *wants* to help, but is still guessing what the heck the failure *is*: hard to triage when there is no symptom description other than "it crashes".... just saying this as a software guy who has been an active "software support" developer for over 10 years: help those who desire to help you!
And of course, this is *not* an attack leveled at our poor crashing user... but a general call for sanity and kindness in software support!
PS: ok, *this* you can get p.o'ed at :-) : Windose sucks! Get with a real os that might be fractionally slower, but infinitely superior in operation: can you quickly pull up all the low level console output of any crash on your system? Std. App in OS X. Big help for error triage. Just sayin'...

In the second pic he posted it says Live 9 Suite version 9.0.0

So are you using a cracked version of Live or are you superstitious about updating your software?

Either way the cause of your problem is obvious.

I echo Charles' comments (sans Windows bashing). Get in touch with support, it's in everyone's interests to work together to fix things.

I'm updating now, hopefully that fixes it.. I'm gonna try all the suggestions here, and Ill be back :)

The difference between 9.1.4 is bad enough. The difference between 9.0.0 and 9.1.7 is like using a completely different app!

Cycling 74's tech support does not need to waste their time with this bullshit.

1. completely clueless about keeping his software up to date, in which case his fix is obvious.

2. A software pirate, in which case he's got no claim to tech support in the first place.

Cycling 74's tech support does not need to waste their time with this bullshit. 

2. A software pirate, in which case he's got no claim to tech support in the first place.


Oh, and seeing as the pic also shows that he installed this version of Live in November of 2014 and Live was well into its 9.1.x versions by then, the most likely answer is that he's using a crack.

I’m updating now, hopefully that fixes it.. I’m gonna try all the suggestions here, and Ill be back :)

So that never occurred to you before coming here to write some long rant?

I would like to repeat how useful it is to have a dedicated CLEAN development system. It doesn't even have to be a different machine (you can multi boot into different OS'es), but it should be a clean featureless installation of your target OS. So there should be no Voxengo Warmifier installed there. It is nonsense to be a dedicated full time developer without something like that. You never know what's causing you troubles if you have all these things installed and running over each other's shoes. Good luck!

My Live reports itself as 9.0.0 as well, although it's at 9.1.7. Probably because I installed at 9.0.0 and got auto-updated to 9.1.7 from there. Or because they don't version their Windows installer, or who knows why else. I am assuming that the OP is using a recent and licensed version of Live, there's no reason to believe otherwise at this point.

Hmm, weird. I guess that's a Windows thing then.

Apologies to OP about the crack comments then.

Still, I have seen many instances where users have posted that they are having M4L crashes and using an outdated version of Live was the culprit.

I think you're all answering the wrong question(muahahahaha, giggle giggle)

I quit my job to pursue a career in M4L plugin design

The secret is not to quit your job to pursue a 'career', but to quit all notions of a 'career' to pursue your dreams.

-Raja has spoken. Everything will be fine now.

I quit my job to pursue a career in M4L plugin design
...PLEASE HELP. WHAT IS THE SECRET

-Raja has spoken. Everything will be fine now.


Ryan, you surely don't think C74 knowingly puts out software that crashes so easily and yelling at them will make 'm fix it? I also experience tons of crashes by times. They signal issues that in exceptional cases cause crashes. More often than not it's a combination of very specific conditions that does it. Can be a Max bug, faulty hardware driver, OS quirks, sun storms. When I encounter these I spend awful amounts of time determining what's causing it and making it reproducible. I need a dependable system because I perform live. If it seems to be Max I send it to C74 support. If they can reproduce it too they ll put it on their bugfix list and more often than not it will be repaired in the next Max update. So be constructive and try to isolate a reproducible issue. Without that C74 can't do much to help you and improve Max/M4L in general.

danke raja, first useful answer. (or to be exact, first useful post in the whole thread.)

"update the damn software" wasn't useful? :-P

EDIT: Oh wait, I forget who I'm talking to.

I tend to avoid updates in general if possible, just because it usually entails upgrading other things as well (which is more money), including third-party stuff that may not be upgrade-ready. Plus users always lag behind in uprgades so backward-compatibility for them is also important. But if there were that significant of bug fixes, it's obviously worth it.

Still working on all this... should be able to get back to you guys later today

I tend to avoid updates in general if possible, just because it usually entails upgrading other things as well (which is more money), including third-party stuff that may not be upgrade-ready. Plus users always lag behind in uprgades so backward-compatibility for them is also important. But if there were that significant of bug fixes, it's obviously worth it. 

Still working on all this... should be able to get back to you guys later today


DTR-- I wasn't yelling AT anybody, I was just yelling. Big difference ;)

OK-- after uninstalling everything and trying reinstallation of a few different versions of both software in different orders, I've found a combo that works.. live 9.17 and max 6. For some reason itr can't seem to use the API tools when it's set to use max 7 instead of 6.. i like 7 so thats a shame, but whatever, it works now!

If your intention is to develop M4L devices then you should be coding with Max 6 anyway, since it's the version that is officially supported by Ableton. Users who own a M4L license but not a Max 7 standalone license will not be able to use Max 7 as their M4L editor/engine so if you're concerned with compatibility for users of your devices then coding with Max 6 is the way to go.

Ryan. Glad to hear its working now. Hopefully you can go further down that road with plug in development. Keep at it !!

I feel your pain. I've experienced some pretty devastating crashes - ones that made me give up a large project that I was doing with m4l. Later, it turned out that there were thread-safety issues with Javascript and Max 5 so there was not going to be any solution on my part...

That said, the Max/MSP developers are in a difficult place. Because it's a programming system, it's also quite possible to do "bad things" like blow up the stack with infinite recursion (and a hundred other things) - and for efficiency reasons, Max/MSP can't always be checking that.

The best general solution IMHO is dividing things into fairly small, bullet-proof Max patches and testing them thoroughly.

What I personally do these days is put everything I can into Javascript. I'm simply much better at writing procedural programs than boxes and wires stuff and now that Max 6 and up have a better, thread-safe Javascript, I've have long periods of stability.

I feel your pain.  I've experienced some pretty devastating crashes - ones that made me give up a large project that I was doing with m4l.  Later, it turned out that there were thread-safety issues with Javascript and Max 5 so there was not going to be any solution on my part...

That said, the Max/MSP developers are in a difficult place.  Because it's a programming system, it's also quite possible to do "bad things" like blow up the stack with infinite recursion (and a hundred other things) - and for efficiency reasons, Max/MSP can't always be checking that.

What I personally do these days is put everything I can into Javascript.  I'm simply much better at writing procedural programs than boxes and wires stuff and now that Max 6 and up have a better, thread-safe Javascript, I've have long periods of stability.


Relentless, Fury-inducing, Life-ruining Crashes.