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Ruz Kut

I've managed to translate the ascending insert-sort algorithm into GenExpr, but there are issues to be solved.

Mainly, it seems like it always miss some values, resulting in a semi-sorted buffer... ?

Do you think is a problem related to signed floating values ?

Is there a way to create an integer variable (not a constant) in GenExpr so the for-loops are more precise ?

I've also tried with [data] before with the same code, but It always gives me weird errors (gen~ kernel, unable to compile, etc...)

btw I'm doing this in order to modify the gen-chopper-repeat patch so that I can play grains by reading an index sorted by RMS values, so of course the more precise is the sorting the better. (the concept is that of grain-tagging, something like CataRT by IRCAM).

Hi all !
I'm no expert in code whatsoever
BUT
I've managed to translate the ascending insert-sort algorithm into GenExpr, but there are issues to be solved.
Mainly, it seems like it always miss some values, resulting in a semi-sorted buffer... ?

Do you think is a problem related to signed floating values ?
Is there a way to create an integer variable (not a constant) in GenExpr so the for-loops are more precise ?
I've also tried with [data] before with the same code, but It always gives me weird errors (gen~ kernel, unable to compile, etc...)

btw I'm doing this in order to modify the gen-chopper-repeat patch so that I can play grains by reading an index sorted by RMS values, so of course the more precise is the sorting the better. (the concept is that of grain-tagging, something like CataRT by IRCAM).


insert-sort-of-a-buffer-in-gen-codebox

Forgot to link my reference for insert-sorting
http://mathbits.com/MathBits/CompSci/Arrays/Insertion.htm

If only someone fluent with codebox could give my patch a look I'd appreciate it :)


I noticed one thing though, if you try and work with longer buffers the sorting contains less samples than the input. 

Yes -- the Max console hints at why: "gen~: audio processing exception: Too many iterations (runaway loop?)"

For safety, gen~ forces a limit on how many loop iterations can happen on each vector -- this limit is currently defined as 100000 * vector size. The reason for doing this is that too many iterations can cause an audio dropout, and infinite iterations will lock up the entire audio thread (possibly crashing it). Per Turing, there's no way to know in advance if a given piece of code will loop forever, so we work around this by having the loop iteration limit and bailing out of audio processing when this limit is reached -- and printing the warning to the Max console.

Although the buffer size in your patcher is 44100 samples long, and thus less than the loop limit, the insert-sort algorithm can cause millions of iterations due to the nested loop. This really is too many to process within one signal vector, and would cause audio dropouts. 

To process millions of samples in gen~, the solution is to distribute processing over time. Sadly there's not an easy way to convert the code to do this -- but after a bit of manual work, here it is working. What I found interesting in this is that the semantics of the code became a bit more obvious:

Note that if you want it to sort faster, you can wrap that final if() block in a for loop, but this will increase the CPU load:

Another option is to process the insertion sort via some non-gen~ solution. If you still want to use GenExpr, you could actually achieve it via jit.gen and jit.buffer~, but I don't think insertion sort is the best sorting algorithm to use, as it can't take advantage of the parallelism of cell-based processing. sample-sort, quick-sort, aa-sort etc. might work better.

Thanks for those examples - fascinating and illuminating! 

insert-sort of a buffer in gen codebox ?

Andrew Benson

While working on something, I needed a way to capture a sample and then loop it, but have the loop length dependent on the length of the recording. I whipped up a solution in Gen~ and thought it might be useful for someone else.

sample-and-loop

Fantastic bit of code. I just added functionality for length of loop and a reverse button. 


Also wouldn't be hard to add in a rate control (just multiply the sample playback increment before %). fun stuff


I seem to get either silence or white noise when speed isn't 1.


It looks very interesting but (I'm a total noob with gen) what is the advantage of doing it in gen~ rather than with the classic groove~ object ?

I'm currently building something for doing, more or less, the same thing and I didn't think of using gen~ 

Close, but the * should go before the + actually.  You are multiplying the increment amount to change speed.  With the speed control, I also switched to a higher-quality interpolation mode so I can buttery smooth slow-downs.  Try this:

@Spip The advantage - for me at least - is the ability to have a fairly fine-grained control over how it works, and be able to expand and alter that at will.  The groove~ object is a little bit of a black box that just works.  Also, with my version, the phase of the loop is in sync with the recording.  I could also expand this to do overdubbing with just a few more parts.  Also, the @interp options in the Gen~ objects sound really good.


Ah I see where I was going wrong. Sounds great! 

I just added a sync output like groove~ and an output for length of sample.

I'm trying to change the start point of the sample though without too much luck. 

I think this is what you want. This doesn't protect you from reading past the end of the buffer though, so you might want to further complicate that calculation by scaling the range based on length, or passing through % or something.


Thanks for posting this Andrew. Added a couple of simple things- stop, stutter, restart and overdub. I tried to use splat for the overdub and couldn't make it work. Could you post an example using splat? 

With splat you just divide the play position (in samples) by the buffer size, which you can get from the left outlet of the gen~ buffer object.  Otherwise it's basically the same as poke (from what I can tell), but with linear interpolation if you're playing at different speeds.


>I could also expand this to do overdubbing with just a few more parts

... well... if it isn't too much bother... I'd sure like to get off and running with a looper like that... :) Pretty please?


Here's a patch with all the above contributions including overdub...

It's such a privilege to be part of a community with so many smart, creative people. Not to mention generous. Thanks!!!


I know how to do this outside of gen~, but is there a way to ramp the attack/release inside gen~ to minimize clicks?


There's no rule that EVERYTHING has to happen inside the gen~ object. ;) That said, here is a simple way to do linear ramps between 0 and 1 for an A/R envelope.  Hope that helps.


Thank you, Andrew. :-) Just trying to keep learning all this wonderful new stuff.


Interpolation using [splat] seems to not work when referencing a buffer in reverse....am I doing something wrong, or is this not supported?  If not, is there a possibility that it will be, or am I going to have to build something that does this myself?  I'm trying to get rid of the need for ipoke~ in my tape looper patch.


I'm trying to fold it into a larger patch and i'm running into a couple noob roadblocks. First I'm trying to convert the gen looper to record in stereo (with the option of then controlling playback of each channel independently) so for example on play back the left channel could play forward and the right channel in reverse, or setting different start and end loop point. different speeds per channel etc.... I tried duplicating the inside of the gen~ changing the inputs on the copy but it's not wanting to record to a two channel buffer. 

The second question is, this will all live in a bpatcher of which i will load several instances of in a parent patcher and I've done this before by prefixing names in the bpatcher with #0. but when I try to use the #0 in the gen object to rename the buffer name i get a gen compile error saying that #0_lp is not a valid variable name. So I'm not sure how to get around that.

 Thanks for the help and the inspiring code to start with!
Attached is a copy of my hacked version which is not working correctly.


There's a couple of problems with that genpatcher -- first of all, the #0- prefixing doesn't work in gen patchers (and probably never will...). Instead, create a named buffer object (e.g. [buffer mybuf]) and in the parent Max patcher send a message "mybuf #0_lp" to the gen~. Also, [splat] does not support different @interp modes at the moment. 

I hope that helps. Here's the gen~ with those changes made:


Thanks Graham i will check that out and report back. Best!


I tried to modify the patch (Rick's version with overdub), so the loop will sync to the transport.  After a few hilarious attempts, I realized I may need help from people wiser than myself.

i would like to run 6 instances of this simultaneously but do not have gen!

would someone kindly post 6 versions of this that address buffers with different names?

Ever once in a while I come back to this patch and try and figure why the overdub part stopped working.
[Splat] use to need different timing information than [Poke]. From what I found that's no longer true.
They now seem to be the same except that [Splat] writes with linear interpolation between samples and
overdubs the new and old samples.

Anyway... here's a new working version and I added a new function, multiply I guess is the best name.
It's basically a new loop that runs in sync with the original recording, except that the new loop can be
two or three times or however many times as long as the original loop.


I’m very new to gen~ and trying to build a varispeed looper with overdub (i.e. what this patch does). I’ve got Max 7 and overdub wasn’t working properly, which I assume is because a) the new splat takes a sample or phase index just like the poke object (which Rick already noticed) and b) it automatically overdubs, i.e. mixes the incoming signal with the existing buffer (according to the mix value sent to the fourth inlet and the @overdubmode attribute). So I just stopped feeding the peak output into splat and it works like a charm (pasted below).

But I’ve run into a problem: I get quite a bit of high-frequency digital noise when overdubbing at any speed other than 1. A similar effect happens with the groove~/poke~ combination I was using before, but it’s much subtler and only appears after multiple overdubs. Can anyone reproduce this problem – and any ideas how to solve it?

(Audio interface is an Apogee One running @ 44.1 kHz, which usually gives pretty clean conversion.)

From what you're describing that sounds like interpolation issues. So if you record (or overdub) at a rate higher than 1. you aren't writing every consecutive sample, hence leaving empty samples. Which when you go to play back, gives you that alias-y type sound.

I've not mess with the gen objects/options too much but interpolation seems like it would be an attribute for the buffer/playback objects in gen.


Yes, skipped frames may very well be the problem. Except that I do have peek (the playback object) set to spline interpolation. Splat is supposed to write with interpolation as well. What’s strange is that this combo sounds _worse_ than my groove~/poke~ setup, even though gen~ has higher-quality interpolation. And with groove~/poke~, smearing happens gradually, after several passes (which is exactly what you’d expected with skipped frames), whereas in this ~gen patch, the signal gets severely distorted on the very first overdub. (I also tried the trick of writing 3 samples ahead/behind of playback in case the problem was caused by writing to the same buffer.)

Several other threads on this forum suggest ping-ponging between two buffers/pokes; i.e. always writing at sample-rate (without interpolation) and mixing that signal with the output from the interpolated, tempo-shifted playback object. I’ve almost got this ~gen patch working that way, though I’m not quite sure how best to build the pingpong mechanism. I’ll post that too when it’s ready.

Also, Rodrigo: a huge thanks for the groove~/poke~ looper you posted. I used it as a template for my own, but now I’ve put everything inside polybuffer~ and poly~ objects (which you also suggested on another thread) so I can add buffer~ and groove~ objects on the fly, keeping each overdub layer separate so I can warp them non-destructively. A little CPU-intensive, but otherwise works quite well. I’d be happy to share it if anyone’s interested.


That's a cool idea for the polybuffer. I would imagine easy to setup an 'undo' kind of thing by doing that.

I've recently commissioned a custom looper external that I will share for free(source and all) once it's ready. It does all the bells-and-whistels looping that I want/need, and nice and click free.


I'm very much looking forward to that, Rodrigo - will it be able to loop something that isn't free-jazz drums, too? :)


fuck yeah. I'm all over it, then. I'm the worst drummer on the planet.


Hi Ian, may you post your patch ? I struggle with poly~ and am curious to see working bits of patching using it on this looper stuff.


Here you go, Stephane. Sorry for the delay (needed to clean up the patching quite a bit). Not sure how to bundle abstractions with pasted code so I’ve just attached the patch as a .zip. This is very much a prototype: no undo yet (but easy to implement); no record in reverse. Should give you an idea how to go about using poly~ for a looper though. Built entirely in Max 7 so watch out for compatibility issues.

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