Max 7 – broken appearance of Max 5/6 patchers
Max 7 GUI defaults seem to break or override earlier designs. Several objects have visual changes or dropped functionality. Round rects are sharp rects; color/font/drawing/layout choices aren't respected. Some options are available any longer. Dial, for example, is missing an indicator style.
Has anyone else wrestled with this or tried to come up with a programmatic fix? All my old patchers and standalones are currently more or less unusable under Max 7.
Chris, I bought Max 7 way back when it was on special but dislike the graphics so much that I never use it, so I'm in a very similar situation to you.
I try to make patches really neat to help me understand them. I've been using Max at quite a light level for about 8 years and, having never studied it thoroughly e.g. at college or uni, often learn new things that can improve the old patches; so I'm often having to go back and figure out what the hell I did. (Yes, I've kept notes, but unless there's some magic technique I'm not aware of, the nature of Max is such that these notes make heavy reading.) Max 7 makes it all too difficult because the old patches look so messy..
There's a forum post (sorry, can't find it) that describes how to make it all look fairly close to previous versions. But it doesn't really fix a couple of common objects - button and toggle IIRC. And it doesn't fix the SIZE of v7 objects that ruin my carefully laid out neatness. The method involves defining a new style (format icon in top edge -> menu at left). There's also a page at https://docs.cycling74.com/max7/vignettes/styles but as I said it doesn't seem to fix everything that needs to be fixed. I'd *love* to be proven wrong by someone answering this!
I'm kinda hoping that enough posts like this might make c74 fix the problem in a point release or v8. Fingers crossed! And sorry I can't be more helpful.
+1000
I've sent a request to C74 Support pointing out the problem (although I'd be shocked if they weren't already aware of it ), pointing them to this forum topic.and asking for "comments/news/solutions". Let's see what happens, eh?
For me the biggest issue is what it does to borders that were set to invisible (set's them this really bright blue), and to umenus.
And the fact to that if you save a 'Max6' patch in Max7, that it becomes jacked for Max6 too thereafter as a result.
For my part, I just (painfully) updated my main patches, and stopped using Max6. Would have definitely preferred not to do that though....
Whatever else comes of this issue, in the distant future when max 8 pops up, i hope that these format issues are taken into account. I still have a few projects i cant bear to open and even attempt to fix, as they are layers on layers of scrambled interface.
Hi Folks,
We are aware of a number of reports regarding the UI of Max 7 and are actively following and logging them. At this point in time we have no plans to change the UI of Max 7. Thank you very much for the discussion!
Cheers
Andrew
@Bill Canty, thanks. I read every thread I could find on styles and templates. It's possible to change the default background/foreground colors using templates but there's no real fix to be found.
https://cycling74.com/forums/custom-color-scheme-layout-setup-walkthrough/
https://cycling74.com/forums/one-more-time-layout-sorry/
@Andrew, thanks very much for your reply. I'm sorry to hear it though because many of my existing patchers are unusable under Max 7. FWIW, I've attached two screenshots of an example broken patcher (standalone) under Max 6 and Max 7, respectively:
• The default colours clash with the existing palette in this case. Fix: change colours.
• The SIZE (height) of objects has surprisingly increased causing layout issues. Fix: None. Workaround: redesign layout.
• The Max 7 DIAL objects used in the filter section (lower right) are much harder to read than the old ones. N.B. the old DIAL drawing style is unavailable in Max 7. Fix: color? Shape/size?
• The way I was using the SLIDER object (left display) as a playhead marker breaks. SLIDER defaults to "indicator+", overriding the previous "indicator". Fix: change background colour, opacity (?) and indicator style.
• It's not as evident from a static snapshot but the filter/audio display (lower right) isn't working. I use two stacked filtergraphs~ and a spectroscope~ but whatever I was doing there with Z-layers and opacity is broken, I don't know quite how or why yet. Anyway, my spectrogram isn't showing through. Fix: ?? Probably fixable.
This patcher is just one of the many that would need to be redesigned for Max 7. Maybe it only takes a few hours to fix. But will the fixes work in Max 6 then? Then multiply the above across a few hundred patchers dating back to 1994 and you have my problem in a nutshell.
.
@Andrew: Thanks!
Would I be correct in assuming that there was a really good technical reason for making all those UI changes in v7?
I have nothing of significance built in MAX6, I only used it for 30 days, and yet I HATE HATE HATE the look and feel changes in max 7. I feel like I am patching in a cave. HATE IT. HATE IT. CAN'T SEE IT!!
Loved the color and lightness of Max6.
Why can't simple backwards compatibility be an option? I cannot believe a MAX5-6 compatibility option is not being considered.
I can tell you MAX7 was designed by people with much keener eyesight than I have. I guess we have to wait for them to turn 50 and not be able to see their software anymore, like me. Even now, I'm willing to bet they don't code with their IDE's set up for white text on a grey background....
They didn't set up this forum that way. Nice, because I can see what I'm typing now.
+1000
@Woodslanding UI aesthetics are subjective and subject to the whims of fashion — M4L users probably prefer the new look — but I think readability is a legitimate issue.
There's no shortage of studies on readability that identify the pitfalls of inverted colour schemes. Black text on white background is the most readable and most preferred. If you DO choose an inverted colour scheme, here are some rules of thumb:
https://www.joedolson.com/2006/08/on-the-readability-of-inverted-color-schemes/
http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2009/08/the-dos-and-donts-of-dark-web-design/
http://uxmovement.com/content/when-to-use-white-text-on-a-dark-background/
I intend to memorize these and try creating a few patchers in Max 7. It's no doubt possible to create great-looking interfaces in an M4L style or some others.
I wouldn't be bugging Cycling74 with these issues at all if it weren't for prior development. It's mainly about being able to open and use patchers constructed in Max 5 or 6 (and being able to update and compile standalones under Max 7 without having to substantially redesign their interfaces).
@Andrew: Backward compatibility is hard, I get that, but there's a tantalizing hint of it in the Max 7 JSON which is showing a new flag, modernui:
"patcher" : {
"fileversion" : 1,
"appversion" : {
"major" : 7,
"minor" : 1,
"revision" : 0,
"architecture" : "x86",
"modernui" : 1
}
So if you guys could just go ahead and enable the modernui switch, that'd be great ;) Probably not going to happen, eh? Sigh.
Aside from the personal esthetic issue of liking or not liking the look and feel of Max 7 (I hate it) the fact that many of my Max 6 patches are broken practically beyond repair (for the many reasons reported in the posts above) is infuriating. Cycling 74's the decision to release a version with such severe lack of backward compatibility is both shocking and deplorable. The worst part is that after many months of complaint they have done little to fix the issue. I remain stuck in Max 6.
I'm pretty sure nothing will be done on this issue. A huge work of mine is still stuck in Max 6. I'm doing my new work in Max 7.
The lesson I get from this Max6-Max7 "transition" is to make my UI even more personal, and to rely as little as possible on c74's graphics. But sometimes you can't help it. Why does the appearance of a basic object such as [slider] does not carry over in Max 7? No idea, but I'm sure that won't be fixed. Good luck on your work.
The worst part is that Max 7 UI is absolutely unusable once the number of objects on the screen exceeds some value. With 50 (fewer even), for example, the patch just won't be editable anymore. Just making a cable connection takes about 5 seconds or so. It has been a problem for me on all sorts of machines with all operating systems. Of course, in Max 6 there is no such problem, one can have easily >100 objects all in one space without any noticeable lag.
I am not talking about aesthetic decisions, my primary concern is performance, which is a major problem.
Also, Max 7 UI still does not look nice on smaller screens with high DPI, there is no scaling.
Should we expect some change in that direction soon?