ironlion

I'm working with a device that observes clips getting recorded and stops the recording after a certain amount of bars. It works fairly well except that if a clip is deleted, the device stops working.

http://www.maxforlive.com/library/device.php?id=3329

I'm working with a device that observes clips getting recorded and stops the recording after a certain amount of bars.  It works fairly well except that if a clip is deleted, the device stops working.

problem-with-clip-observer

Can you describe more specifically what you're doing to get this error? I can't seem to recreate it. I throw the device behind a midi instrument, picked a bar number with the circular buttons, then record clips. It records that number of bars, then immediately starts playing it. I can delete already recorded clips in the track and the device keeps functioning for me.

I'm also a little unsure why this device would be the way to go for looping vs the Ableton looper etc. The author says "With this device you can use Abletons clip view and record multiple clips (in contrast to abletons loop device) by only starting the clip. You dont't have to stop it, so you have your hands free to play." I get that you might want to not have to hit to stop recording, but this can be done with the looper. You set how many bars you want (instead of the X option that's variable) and then set whether you want upon finishing to go into play or overdub mode.

So, if that's the only goal I'm having trouble seeing what this device accomplishes beyond that. Is it that you need it in a clip slot specifically? Maybe you can describe what you're trying to accomplish with this device as well, because I might know another way

Hi Andrew, thanks so much for taking the time to look at this.

The essence of what I'm trying to get to is this: while on stage, I want to have as close to 0% interaction with my laptop screen as possible. I assume there must be other musicians out there that feel the same way. I want to be focused with the audience and having this clip slot functionality along with a controller (i.e., APC mini, FCB1010, etc...) allows me to build loops by just pressing a button and then play my instruments. Anything more than that takes up too much internal bandwidth and detracts from the performance. Connecting with computers and connecting with people just don't mix! (for me anyway)

I've done a design mockup for Ableton which you can see here: 

https://successful-website-design.com/images/graphic-design/all-features-combined.jpg

 and which I've posted in an ableton forum thread here:

https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=221788&sid=5ba0270141828618439f9af8677c5034

However, the chances of them implementing that anytime soon are nil so I was lucky to find Streuner's device - which is almost there!

That being said, and to answer your question, it's when running it on an audio track that the deleting problem happens. (I hadn't tried it on a midi track.)

Regarding the Ableton looper, as you know, it does have the auto punch out, but requires the user to "drag" the loop into a clip slot. So if you're creating more than one scene, you're forced to drag your loops by hand up into the clip slots. That brings me back to the laptop screen again which is what I'm trying to get away from. Here's an ableton thread of people feeling that pain: 

https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=183603

I don't know if you can see what I mean, but this is a big deal for musicians using ableton. It's hard for me to believe that they haven't addressed this and I've seen people asking for this in threads for the better part of last decade.

So anyway, Streuner's looper is almost there.

The essence of what I'm trying to get to is this: while on stage, I want to have as close to 0% interaction with my laptop screen as possible. I assume there must be other musicians out there that feel the same way. I want to be focused with the audience and having this clip slot functionality along with a controller (i.e.,  APC mini, FCB1010, etc...) allows me to build loops by just pressing a button and then play my instruments. Anything more than that takes up too much internal bandwidth and detracts from the performance. Connecting with computers and connecting with people just don't mix! (for me anyway)

I've done a design mockup for Ableton which you can see here: https://successful-website-design.com/images/graphic-design/all-features-combined.jpg and which I've posted in an ableton forum thread here:
https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=221788&sid=5ba0270141828618439f9af8677c5034

Regarding the Ableton looper, as you know, it does have the auto punch out, but requires the user to "drag" the loop into a clip slot. So if you're creating more than one scene, you're forced to drag your loops by hand up into the clip slots. That brings me back to the laptop screen again which is what I'm trying to get away from. Here's an ableton thread of people feeling that pain: https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=183603

So anyway, Streuner's looper is almost there.


I thought the Drag Me problem with the looper might be why. I think most liver loopers are looking to have as little mouse/keyboard interaction as possible. I myself have had this issue. I used to use clip slots with my old computer/setup because of it but didn't use auto-punch out, but with my new one I switched to using the looper because the clip slots have the limitation of not being able to overdub among other things. I had planned to try Mobius, but I'm running 64 bit Live and for other reasons I don't want go back to 32 bit or attempt a 3rd party bridge. I also have found some other looper plugins, but a few really interesting looking ones are not on Windows, and the one's I've tried on Windows like Freewheeling, while really interesting, don't seem better for me than what I've just this year managed to rig up.

My solution was to use Max to automate the Drag Me function, which is why I got into Max last month. At this point, I have a working (though, somewhat dirty and poorly laid out) patch that receives midi commands to drag each of my loopers current loops to clip slots either one at a time or all at once across the scene. I can then trigger scenes to play, clear individual loopers, pick which scene to dump clips to if I want to break the steady progression forward, clear all loopers etc. (though most of my midi control functionality is still being done with Bome/Ableton midi learn, since I'd built all that before getting into Max due to the major Drag Me sticking point).

It's not in the LOM and can't be done through the Live API but you can use a combination of API controls and mouse emulations to accomplish it. The only limitations I've found are that to get it to work I had to build in a short delay between mouse actions and because the mouse control is attached to screen pixels you have to be careful about rearranging the tracks and such or you may have to recalculate the mouse movements.

So...I fully understand why the Drag Me limitation is a big deal! I think they haven't implemented Drag Me in the LOM because it would be rather complex and difficult to predict how performers will want it to function and a way to make it work for all these different people, with the huge variance in people's setups. It would require a whole 'nother control structure, like a big pullout from the looper to program it where it should go, how to control where it goes, and so on. There's just a lot of variables. For example, whether someone allows audio passthrough. I don't, because I funnel all my instruments through one track and then push it to all my looper tracks all at the same time, and I also want to be able to send play when I'm not recording loops (like one-off soloing over loops). So, if the looper Drag Me just dumped to the next available clip slot, it wouldn't work because the audio would never make it through. This is why I have a helper track next to each one to accept the loops.

As for your strategy though, I'm not sure why you'd need universal record automation. Why not just leave all the tracks armed and then just trigger to record in the clip you want? I might be misunderstanding how your trying to record, since it looks like you're using an APC. But, with M4L you could select whatever clip you want to record to and trigger it through midi. And, I believe the the APC grid is sending midi commands from each button to select what clip to record into as well. I use both a Softstep 2 for hands-free and reprogrammed buttons on my keyboard for hands-on to do this.

Are you inputting an analog instrument and that's why you have it on an audio track? Sorry if I'm being dense, there's just a lot of ways people go about trying to loop in Ableton so I'm having a hard time finding what you're setup is. I've attempted to recreate your problem by inputting an analog signal, and a midi track instrument pushed to the analog track, with the M4L device on the audio track and I still can't recreate it. The blinking of the controls is a little awkward, but it seems to work fine for me. Are you Live 9.61?

Maybe the best way is if you drop my a Live Set where it will happen and instructions on what to do to make it happen? I'm happy to keep working at it, I moved to Japan last year with my wife who's working to become a translator...and I speak almost no Japanese. Solving problems like this is fun for me, and it's cool to talk to someone who's working on looping...or speaks English. Both good.

On a side note, I used to use the FCB1010 back in the states, but I sold it when I left because it wasn't worth the cost to bring it with me given the size and weight. Solid controller, especially for the money. I also sold my APC20 to a buddy...kinda miss it these days, but a Softstep 2 and Oxygen 61 MK4 is more than enough for me to keep developing things...and my equipment already fills this tiny (and I mean tiny) Japanese apartment anyway!

Are you inputting an analog instrument and that's why you have it on an audio track?  Sorry if I'm being dense, there's just a lot of ways people go about trying to loop in Ableton so I'm having a hard time finding what you're setup is. I've attempted to recreate your problem by inputting an analog signal, and a midi track instrument pushed to the analog track, with the M4L device on the audio track and I still can't recreate it. The blinking of the controls is a little awkward, but it seems to work fine for me. Are you Live 9.61?

On a side note, I used to use the FCB1010 back in the states, but I sold it when I left because it wasn't worth the cost to bring it with me given the size and weight. Solid controller, especially for the money. I also sold my APC20 to a buddy...kinda miss it these days, but a Softstep 2 and Oxygen 61 MK4 is more than enough for me to keep developing things...and my equipment already fills this tiny (and I mean tiny) Japanese apartment anyway!


'pushed to the audio track', not analog track ha

Thanks for sharing some of what you've done and for offering to help. To answer your question, when bringing in audio, I set the monitor to "Auto" and then use the record arm button to simultaneously select a track and arm it (out of the box with APC mini). If all tracks are armed, then I have source coming in on all tracks and it sounds horrible (see attached image).

It seems I can't break it down to less than two clicks to start a loop. I have to select a track (1) and then trigger record (2). I'd like to have it just be one: trigger record using the APC mini (or FCB1010) and then have the auto punch out. In order to do it with one click though, I'd have to have the APC mini clip slot button be able to arm the track and 

 (by hitting an assigned hot key in the device below). But that doesn't work either because the record arm is a toggle. I don't think it's possible to get it down to a single button press.

 (there's a free demo download on that page). I just discovered this and it does give me the ability to auto punch out and unlike Streuner's device, it's fully functional. With that I get the auto punch out which means two clicks per loop and I can work with that. That's pretty good.

The other reason the APC mini clip slot buttons can't trigger the record arm is because I can only assign one button to one function. In other words, I can't have all say, 8 vertical slots in track one trigger the single record arm button (and there's also the toggle issue I mentioned above). That's why I suggested a global clip slot record arm in that mockup. The clip slots need to be able to combine record arm and trigger clip into one button push.

Where all this comes from is I got spoiled on Loopy, the iOS app. But I want the scene capability of Ableton. I like the freedom of having a 64 slot visual (via (APC mini) looper. Loopy maxes out at 12 slots - which is pretty good, I've used for years and have loved it, but I want somethign more robust for performance. If you have an iOS device, check out Loopy, then it will be really clear what I'm going for - which is essentially to have a 64 slot grid where I can press any one of the buttons and start recording and then have it auto punch out after the global quantization value.

I bet Japan is beautiful. Hope you're enjoying it there.

It seems I can't break it down to less than two clicks to start a loop. I have to select a track (1) and then trigger record (2). I'd like to have it just be one: trigger record using the APC mini (or FCB1010) and then have the auto punch out. In order to do it with one click though, I'd have to have the APC mini clip slot button be able to arm the track and then trigger the slot (by hitting an assigned hot key in the device below). But that doesn't work either because the record arm is a toggle. I don't think it's possible to get it down to a single button press.

If you have time, check this out: http://www.tete-de-son.com/?p=872  (there's a free demo download on that page). I just discovered this and it does give me the ability to auto punch out and unlike Streuner's device, it's fully functional. With that I get the auto punch out which means two clicks per loop and I can work with that. That's pretty good.

As for the other issues, they all seem doable to me. So, that's good.

First, to get around the issue of arming all the tracks causing the incoming audio to be multiplied, turn off monitoring on the clip tracks. Set the inputs for those tracks to the source (like a track with a midi instrument, or the track with the input from a given external instrument), leave the output from the source to the master, and activate the record button on all of the clip tracks. The audio will no longer play through the clip tracks, but it will still let you record to the clips and when those play they'll go to the master as usual. Boom.

If you choose to go another way and want hitting the clip record to also turn on the track record arm, this is also doable. In fact, I do this sort of thing all the time. You're right that you can't assign more than one midi message to control one thing using Ableton's midi learn (which is an annoying limitation...honestly, there's a lot of annoying limitations to Ableton's midi implementation when you want to do the kind of things I do...like, internally Ableton does not have multiple midi channels!!! gah!!! and you can't type in midi controls, forcing me to do all kinds of weird things to get things assigned with Midi learn, for example when I have one button controlling 4 things and Ableton can't pick out which message to assign).

But, using external software like Bome Midi Translator this is trivial to pull off. I'm sure it can be done with Max as well, but I'm still new to Max, while I've used Bome for a long time. It's the "brain" for all my midi communications...everything goes through it. In Bome, you'd set a translator to be triggered by the pressing the grid buttons to record a clip and have it output the message assigned to the record button. Thus, you can have as many midi messages as you want controlling one thing in Ableton this way.

You can also turn toggle-only buttons in Ableton or plugins into momentary buttons, for example. You might set Bome to "swallow" the incoming note-on message and output the necessary note-on message to hit the toggle button, then have Bome swallow the incoming note-off message (from releasing the controller button) and have it output the same note-on message it did before. This effectively converts the toggle button into a momentary.

I have hundreds, maybe thousands of translators in my setup doing all kinds of things to the flows of midi data. Bome also provides the virtual midi drivers my system operates on (instead of say, using Midi-ox). They have a free trial, and the full version is like 60 or 75 bucks I think. It takes a little effort to get used to how it thinks, but it's very low overhead on system resources and honestly I can't imagine going without it at this point. Though, some actions I expect to move over to Max as I get better with it.

As for the large circular display on the mock-up you made, that should be doable within Max. I'd have to put in a lot of work to figure out how, but I've seen that sort of thing done before. I've made some circular drawings like that when working through Max tutorials. If I wanted to make it, I'd first figure out how to get the circular drawing portion to work while attaching it to an internal Max metro to cut down on where the glitches or design flaws might come from, then once that's done figure out how to attach to Ableton using the transport and quantization amount.

Thanks for the tips! I get what you're saying about the monitoring. That's great, I don't know why that didn't occur to me earlier. It seems there's always an issue though and in this case, it's the fact that the new session looper device I just bought (

 triggers recording on all armed tracks (not just the selected track). And that device is what gives me the auto punch out I need. Ironically, with what you've just shown me, Streuner's looping device would work perfectly if not for its delete clip (on audio tracks) issue. Getting Streuner's device working without the delete clip issue would be ideal as it seems it would be possible to have one click clip recording.

As for the Bome Midi Translator, I recently played around with the free version. I had ordered a Voodoo Lab Ground Control footboard to try and think through all this stuff. From what you're saying, I see I could go further with that. Hmm, would it be possible to do a delayed button repeat with that? In other words, I press a grid buton and then it 1) arms the track 2)then presses the grid button to start recording and 3) then presses it again to stop recording (relying on the GQ value there)? That would solve my issue. Tap tap tap.

Regarding the midi clock, I'm just going to use a blank looper recording. The looper gives a fairly visible counter that can be synced with the GQ value. That being said, there are a couple of existing devices that might give you a good portion of the code you would need.

http://www.maxforlive.com/library/device/99/simple-time-counter

And here's a metronome counter (with pop out window - unfotunately it only counts 1,2,3,4 and not the GQ value):

http://www.maxforlive.com/library/device/228/metronome-graphic

What do you do with your music? Are you performing over there? Do you have anything online I can listen to?

Thanks for the tips! I get what you're saying about the monitoring. That's great, I don't know why that didn't occur to me earlier. It seems there's always an issue though and in this case, it's the fact that the new session looper device I just bought (http://www.tete-de-son.com/?p=872) triggers recording on all armed tracks (not just the selected track). And that device is what gives me the auto punch out I need. Ironically, with what you've just shown me, Streuner's looping device would work perfectly if not for its delete clip (on audio tracks) issue. Getting Streuner's device working without the delete clip issue would be ideal as it seems it would be possible to have one click clip recording.

As for the Bome Midi Translator, I recently played around with the free version. I had ordered a Voodoo Lab Ground Control footboard to try and think through all this stuff. From what you're saying, I see I could go further with that.  Hmm, would it be possible to do a delayed button repeat with that? In other words, I press a grid buton and then it 1) arms the track 2)then presses the grid button to start recording and 3) then presses it again to stop recording (relying on the GQ value there)? That would solve my issue. Tap tap tap.

Regarding the midi clock, I'm just going to use a blank looper recording. The looper gives a fairly visible counter that can be synced with the GQ value. That being said, there are a couple of existing devices that might give you a good portion of the code you would need. 

Here's a time counter:
http://www.maxforlive.com/library/device/99/simple-time-counter

And here's a metronome counter (with pop out window - unfotunately it only counts 1,2,3,4 and not the GQ value):
http://www.maxforlive.com/library/device/228/metronome-graphic

What do you do with your music? Are you performing over there?  Do you have anything online I can listen to?


Andrew, I just downloaded the Bome Pro trial and I see it is definitely possible to do a three key sequence - triggered from one midi event. To save me some time, do you know how to write a sequence for Bome that would do this:

Midi trigger --> keystroke a --> x millisecond delay --> keystroke b --> x second delay --> keystroke c

Hey again, I figured it out. I can definitely do the triple key repeat. Testing...

The issue is this with using the Bome triple tap method: because the length of clips change depending on 1) how many bars there are and 2) what the bpm of the project is, having a fixed delay (via Bome) between triggering the clip and punching out isn't reliable.

Which brings me back to Streuner's almost working looper device. As I mentioned above, it seems that would be the ideal combo of arming all tracks and having auto punch out.

The issue is this with using the Bome triple tap method: because the length of clips change depending on 1) how many bars there are and 2) what the bpm of the project is, having a fixed delay (via Bome) between triggering the clip and punching out isn't reliable.  

Which brings me back to Streuner's almost working looper device. As I mentioned above, it seems that would be the ideal combo of arming all tracks and having auto punch out.


Sorry for the delayed reply, had a weird week.

Yeah, there's always positives and negatives to each strategy. It's so often not a clear choice. With the looping device you bought, perhaps you could modify it to only record on the track it's on, then put one on each track and have separate controls for each. Sorry I haven't been able to help much with the Streuner device, I just haven't been able to replicate the issue so it's hard to troubleshoot.

You could drop that part of the setup in a blank Live Set and share it and that would let us test whether it's a problem inherent to the device or whether it might be a complication from something else in your setup (like, if the set doesn't work for you but does on my comp). I'm assuming you've probably checked this, but are you up to date on both Ableton and Max? There were some a bunch of changes in the LOM in recent versions, and I know some components of Max as well, like some Jitter stuff that had stopped functioning because Apple was phasing out some tech and so the Max folks have had to work to replace it.

Thanks for the Time device suggestion, though I'd just brought that up because you indicated you wanted it in the mock-up you shared. Now that you brought it up then shared sample devices, I'm going to check out the visual one and see, since you've got me thinking it might help with some things.

If you decide to keep attempting the Bome route instead of the Streuner for the moment, I think it should be possible to sync the punch out, but it would take some work. Using M4L I think you should be able to track the timing and then use Bome as a virtual midi router to take the outgoing midi messages from Max and funnel them back to Ableton. This could be done using a mix of the 2 I bet. It would take some work though. And, if Streuner is perfect for you except the glitch, it might be easier to fix that glitch then to figure out how to rig this, dunno.

I'm trying to remember if Bome can work with midi time-clock data. If it does, then it might be possible to receive that from Live and work with it to achieve the timing. I've never had a need to work in Bome that way, so I honestly don't know. I'm not on my comp right now so I can't check, but check the options in the incoming message dropdown and see if it might be in there somewhere. I'm almost positive Bome can forward that data with its midi thru, so it might be in there for processing.

As for my music, I was without a music-capable computer for a long time until just back at the start of this year. Before that gap, I was working off an old 2007 comp with a woefully lacking processor. In other words, I could prototype live looping setups by "downgrading" (read, upgrading!) from Vista back to XP and hacking it down to 5 processes at boot. This got it minimally working at a low enough latency to see the potential, but if I got more than a couple of loops going or used any FX whatsoever I had to push the latency high enough that it was no-go.

So, I'm pretty happy to finally be able to PLAY recently instead of just preparing. The setup I use now was created from scratch again though, since I built it around different equipment. You can find me at: 

 atm. As far as I know wherever you see omnireq on the net, it's me, including Soundcloud. Except on the Ableton forums where I'm omniand, because I had that account before omnireq existed. I hadn't posted anything yet and have just shared samples to friends to talk about issues like how it translates to their systems, but a bit ago I uploaded some samples from the new setup so you could check it out.

I could especially use comments on how the low end is coming through if you have a sub, since I can't get one over here. (They haven't complained yet about how much noise I make, even though technically playing instruments is against my lease. But, I'm almost positive they'd come down on me when all the elderly Japanese people start complaining about their apts vibrating!) Now that the basic looping controls work fairly well, I'm improving then taking notes about what I wished I had, or what doesn't work in practice the way I envisioned in theory. Then, adjusting. Some of my "best" ideas have ended up being too cumbersome to control on the fly, and things like that. The looping that's held together enough for upload is rather simple, but I'm working on getting the hang of my dump device, but I gotta get more automatic with my feet controls, gotta get some more dexterity.

I also have some pretty bad eq and balance issues. It's better than where I started, back when I'd pull in a different instrument and it'd be loud enough to scare the hell out of me, ha, but for example I don't have an electric violin yet, so I have to contend with hearing the acoustic sound too, so I'm still struggling to feel level inside of Ableton. It's coming along little by little though.

The older stuff on that account is from back when I first found Ableton and started mucking around, and doesn't have anything to do with the path I'm working on now. Though apparently some people liked one of the tracks enough to max out the downloads, so that's kinda cool I guess.

Do you have a place where I could find what you've got going? I'd love to check it out!

You could drop that part of the setup in a blank Live Set and share it and that would let us test whether it's a problem inherent to the device or whether it might be a complication from something else in your setup (like, if the set doesn't work for you but does on my comp). I'm assuming you've probably checked this, but are you up  to date on both Ableton and Max? There were some a bunch of changes in the LOM in recent versions, and I know some components of Max as well, like some Jitter stuff that had stopped functioning because Apple was phasing out some tech and so the Max folks have had to work to replace it.

 Thanks for the Time device suggestion, though I'd just brought that up because you indicated you wanted it in the mock-up you shared. Now that you brought it up then shared sample devices, I'm going to check out the visual one and see, since you've got me thinking it might help with some things.

If you decide to keep attempting the Bome route instead of the Streuner for the moment, I think it should be possible to sync the punch out, but it would take some work. Using M4L I think you should be able to track the timing and then use  Bome as a virtual midi router to take the outgoing midi messages from Max and funnel them back to Ableton. This  could be done using a mix of the 2 I bet. It would take some work though. And, if Streuner is perfect for you except the glitch, it might be easier to fix that glitch then to figure out how to rig this, dunno.

As for my music, I was without a music-capable computer for a long time until just back at the start of this year. Before that gap, I was working off an old 2007 comp with a woefully lacking processor. In other words, I could prototype  live looping setups by "downgrading" (read, upgrading!) from Vista back to XP and hacking it down to 5 processes at boot. This got it minimally working at a low enough latency to see the potential, but if I got more than a couple of loops going or used any FX whatsoever I had to push the latency high enough that it was no-go.

So, I'm pretty happy to finally be able to PLAY recently instead of just preparing. The setup I use now was created from scratch again though, since I built it around different equipment. You can find me at: https://soundcloud.com/user7850506 atm. As far as I know wherever you see omnireq on the net, it's me, including Soundcloud. Except on the Ableton forums where I'm omniand, because I had that account before omnireq existed. I hadn't posted anything yet and have just shared samples to friends to talk about issues like how it translates to their systems, but a bit ago I uploaded some samples from the new setup so you could check it out.

Do you have a place where I could find what you've got going? I'd love to check it out!


Hi Andrew, Streuner just wrote me and said that he has more time now to look at his device. Being that I'm not a programmer, there's not much I can do to help him. But I did get some feedback from one person for him:

"Don't have time to check the device itself but a trick could be to restart the scan of clips on event (and not permanently). The triggering event could be : number of clip changing (whatever you add one or delete one) per track or per live set."

"Kinda found some hints to grab on. creating a new clip is a problem, too, so I guess I have to design the ID scans totally different"

You mentioned you were having a problem recreating the issue with Streuner's device. To recreate, simply add his device to an audio track. You'll find that it works until you delete a clip within that track. Then it stops working.

And I think you found that it does work fine on midi clips? (I will test this later)

I am using the latest versions of Ableton and Max.

Do you think, given the above clues, you might be able to do anything with his device to get it working? I could also connect the two of you if that would be helpful...

And, I might as well go ahead and ask this: how did you get started with learning max for live? I'm so clueless, I don't even know - can you even open Struener's device and modify it?

Will reply again later regarding the rest of your message!

And from Streuner this morning:
"Kinda found some hints to grab on. creating a new clip is a problem, too, so I guess I have to design the ID scans totally different"

Will reply again later regarding the rest of your message!


Hey again, I listened to some of your stuff. Do you play violin or is that a VST? Sounds like you're playing with a real instrument. I've used embertone's friedlander violin VST for some stuff (it's in the third example below).

It's interesting that you're in Japan now because there are elements in your music that almost seem Japanese. You mentioned your older stuff is irrelevant now. There seem only be a handful of tracks. Which ones show what you're doing now? Which one of your tracks hit the max download - the Fiona Apple one?

See my previous post for looper details...

Hey again, I listened to some of your stuff. Do you play violin or is that a VST? Sounds like you're playing with a real instrument.  I've used embertone's friedlander violin VST for some stuff (it's in the third example below). 

Here's a couple recent pieces:
https://soundcloud.com/nicollj/the-beat
https://soundcloud.com/nicollj/the-dance
And a slightly older one:
https://soundcloud.com/nicollj/awakening

See my previous post for looper details...


You gave me those recreation instructions before. The problem is that those instructions do not describe a unique set of steps; meaning, there are many ways to accomplish what you say. As I said awhile ago, I do not experience the problem you describe. I tested it on both midi tracks and audio tracks, recorded clips, deleted clips, then recorded more clips just fine. Since you are running the same software, and this is unlikely to be a hardware issue, there is something in the difference between the setup or the exact actions taken that are causing you to have problems but not me.

Since I cannot recreate the problem, it's not worth my time to work on it until I can. Even if I spent a bunch of time trying to break the functionality and succeeded, then fixed it, it won't necessarily fix your issue because it might not even be the same issue you're having.

I do believe Max is worth your time to learn, especially as you seem to have very particular desires that are not readily available in software like Ableton. It's a visual programming language though, so it'll be easier for you to pick up probably than text-based coding, while for someone with a history of text coding, while not hard, it took a day to let go of that mindset and get into a Max mindset.

If you own Live 9 Suite, you own Max For Live. That M4L is essentially the full Max 7, except it has a few limitations. Namely, it must be launched from within Live (though, you can then create new patches that aren't located in the Live Set for learning and such just fine, and all audio/midi data must come through Live via the track that the device is placed on. This means you are limited to 2 audio channels in/out per device for example, as Ableton tracks don't go above stereo.

Yeah, I can open his device. I did when you first posted about it, but as I said it's not worth looking at without understanding the symptoms of the problem. Working to learn Max will probably also make it more likely that people can/will help you out, because if you're just asking people to do work for you that you're not attempting to do yourself, especially in a programming community, then those people probably deserve to be paid for their time and skill. I'm still willing to check it, but you'll need to provide me with a set and exact instructions how to get the problem to occur. For example, not "delete clip" but "use mouse to highlight clip and hit the delete key on your keyboard".

To get going with Max, go to the device in Ableton and click the edit button. It's in the upper right over by the hotswap button. You can then examine and edit as you wish, but I'd be sure to save as to new files so you can easily go back or reference the original. At this point, I'm working out of a book that teaches audio engineering through Max, but I like most everybody started with just the built in documentation. And there's a ton of it.

Go to Help/Reference, then nearish to the top is a "tutorials" link next to the Max category. Work your way through those in order. Be sure Options/Assistance is checked, as this will give you tips as you hover over things. If you alt-click an object, it will open of a sample patch that uses it with helpful info. This is different than right-clicking on an object and clicking reference btw, which opens that objects ref page. But, both of those are fully functional max patches, so you can toy with the code, copy it out to use in your own patch etc. Just don't save it, as you'd then need to reinstall Max to get the original help back.

As for my stuff, the max downloads for a track on a free Soundcloud account is 100, so yeah that track. You can tell which ones are old by looking how long ago they were posted. There are tracks from like 4 years ago, and then from just a few days ago when I upped samples of my current progress for you to hear. The stuff from 4 years ago used non-realtime methods, you know editing and arranging back when I first found Ableton, and most of what I did back then was incomplete, lots of snippets of songs but not full songs. In the descriptions for the samples I just put up, I say there was no editing. I know techniques to improve the sound and fix some of their issues, but at this point I'm focused on getting to a point I'm capable of playing live, and you can't exactly edit live music after the fact. I'm hoping to be able to pull together full-length sets doing improvisational live looping at least by the time I get back to the states. I use a mix of physical and virtual instruments, though I sometimes go all one way, like the 2 violin tracks where everything is sourced from the violin, including the bass and percussion.

I meant it when I said I couldn't afford a computer capable of looping for a long time, and before that it could only minimally pull it off, only enough to do basic tech testing and learning. So, it's taken me 4 or 5 years to get what I now finally have, but I'm still just getting going with it. This means that for the moment my skill at setting up the technical foundation for controlling this playing is more developed than my skill at actually playing with it, since that's all I could really work on at first and then I couldn't work at all. It's coming along, but as I said, it's only been a short while I've been able to work with it.

Yeah, it's a real violin. That's why I mentioned that I haven't ironed out balance issues, because an acoustic violin vibrates your bone structure and also bleeds through headphones (as well as making playing off monitors more or less impossible due to feedback). In other words, I have to play louder than feels right, because I'm hearing sound that isn't inside Ableton, and it's taking some effort to learn to feel what the result will be. And I need to spend some time tweaking the sound now that I can actually play and can afford the cpu power. When the sound is heavily modded it's not so bad, but if I try to play with a more acoustic sound it's coming through kinda hollow and weak, for example.

Enjoying some of your tracks while responding by the way. It looks like you're able to do this professionally. How long have you been at it?

Wow, I really relate to what you're sharing. It's taken me FOREVER (5 years at least) to try and put together a setup that's capable of what I want to do (multi-instrument, live looping). And I know exactly what you mean by hearing sound that isn't inside Ableton. I was actually discouraged for years and years with my music because I'd get into the creative flow with good headphones on and make something awesome. And then I'd go back and listen to it on my stereo and be like, oh, I guess it's not that good. It must all be in my head. And then it was just this year that I began to realize the issue you're describing about sound.

I've also realized that I'm super-sensitive to sound. So when I'm looping, my brain is taking into account every little detail and I'll end up wanting to play something differently when I take a composition from headphones to an amp because the tonality is so different and it affects me creatively. I think it would seem crazy to a normal person but I get the sense that maybe you know what I'm talking about.

Thanks so much for the tips to get going in Max. That will be my next resort. However, what you're saying finally got through my thick skull. I didn't realize there are multiple ways to add a Max device to Ableton. Here's a video that shows how I add the device, shows it working, and then shows it breaking after deleting a clip. I disabled all control surfaces and midi inputs before doing this to be safe. I did discover something interesting: the device only breaks on the deleted clip itself. Triggering the next clip (1 below), it still works fine. So that's one more piece of information.

So in the video, everything is going as expected until I delete the clip at 0:49 and then you can see it fails to stop recording after the first bar (as in the first three times) and just keeps going.

With Streuner's device, I open a live set, select an audio track, leave ableton and go to the folder where Streuner's device is and click on it. Then I see a "Max for Live" splash screen as that is starting up and a few seconds later, it's loaded on the track.

How do you load it? I'd like to try it your way.

Can you reproduce it now after seeing the video?

Wow, I really relate to what you're sharing.  It's taken me FOREVER (5 years at least) to try and put together a setup that's capable of what I want to do (multi-instrument, live looping). And I know exactly what you mean by hearing sound that isn't inside Ableton. I was actually discouraged for years and years with my music because I'd get into the creative flow with good headphones on and make something awesome. And then I'd go back and listen to it on my stereo and be like, oh, I guess it's not that good. It must all be in my head. And then it was just this year that I began to realize the issue you're describing about sound.

Thanks so much for the tips to get going in Max. That will be my next resort. However, what you're saying finally got through my thick skull. I didn't realize there are multiple ways to add a Max device to Ableton. Here's a video that shows how I add the device, shows it working, and then shows it breaking after deleting a clip. I disabled all control surfaces and midi inputs before doing this to be safe. I did discover something interesting: the device only breaks on the deleted clip itself. Triggering the next clip (1 below), it still works fine.  So that's one more piece of information.

Can you reproduce it now after seeing the video?


As a person who does looping, and does it all in Live, I've been following this post, and finally got some time to actually look at the issue.

I can reproduce the problem, but it only happens when you try to record into the clip slot that you just deleted from. If you record into another slot, you can then go back to the previous slot.

I managed to find the issue, it was a [change] object that wouldn't trigger the 'fire' command if the clip slot doesn't change. Now, as a disclaimer, there might be a reason this was there, and I don't guarantee bug free behavior as this is not my device. I don't have the time to look at everything this device is doing, and honestly, I would do it in a slightly different way.

As a person who does looping, and does it all in Live, I've been following this post, and finally got some time to actually look at the issue.
I can reproduce the problem, but it only happens when you try to record into the clip slot that you just deleted from. If you record into another slot, you can then go back to the previous slot. 

I managed to find the issue, it was a [change] object that wouldn't trigger the 'fire' command if the clip slot doesn't change. Now, as a disclaimer, there might be a reason this was there, and I don't guarantee bug free behavior as this is not my device. I don't have the time to look at everything this device is doing, and honestly, I would do it in a slightly different way.


Wow Evan, you hit the nail right on the head. Apparently with how I was testing it, both controlling with midi controllers and with a mouse, I must of always ended up recording a new clip before trying to re-record a deleted clip. The video you uploaded was perfect though. I would've finally realized what we were doing different, which I definitely should've already figured out... sorry about that : / I'm still new enough I couldn't figure out was was wrong just from the code, and honestly I'm really happy Evan jumped in because who knows whether I would've figured out the [change] issue.

I looked at what you did Evan and I think I get it, up by the comment in German. So, the change held the previous slot info and only outputs when the info changes, so when the observer sends it the same info it blocked the output and prevented all that came after it in the chain from executing.

I don't think you mentioned you did live looping in Ableton when you helped me recently Evan. I tried finding you online but couldn't. If you post tracks somewhere, I'd love to check it out!

Wow Evan, you hit the nail right on the head. Apparently with how I was testing it, both controlling with midi controllers and with a mouse, I must of always ended up recording a new clip before trying to re-record a deleted clip. The video you uploaded was perfect though. I would've finally realized what we were doing different, which I definitely should've already figured out... sorry about that  : /   I'm still new enough I couldn't figure out was was wrong just from the code, and honestly I'm really happy Evan jumped in because who knows whether I would've figured out the [change] issue.

I don't think you mentioned you did live looping in Ableton when you helped me recently Evan. I tried finding you online but couldn't. If you post tracks somewhere, I'd love to check it out!


By the way Ironlion, the book I've just started working out of is Electronic Music and Sound Design vol. 1 3rd Ed, by Cipriani and Giri. If you end up studying from the the Max documentation or pick up the book, feel free to hit me up. I'm always happy to talk about what I'm into, and helping someone else has always been a great way to reinforce what I've been learning.

Maybe Streuner's device with Evan's fix and my method of tracks/monitoring fills in the gaps in your setup?

As for the speaker/headphone issue. Yeah, it can be a little frustrating that different equipment plays differently. I've started to notice the impact of it on the way people mix and master, like music tracks meant for actual DJs vs tracks released targeted for people to play on crappy laptop speakers. I've started to think of speakers/headphones as instruments. Like other instruments, some are so unredeemable I can get no enjoyment out of them except perhaps laughter, but among those that are good or great, just like other instruments they play differently. But, instead of thinking of it as losing something when you move and play through a different set, perhaps try to pay attention more to what aspects that individual instrument is capable of bringing out.

Like, I'll listen to the same music on different equipment and different aspects of the music will be highlighted, like how as a violinist you try to find the individual character of the instrument and use it to bring out aspects of the piece. For example, some violins resonate better on different pitches, so when switching instruments I'll try to embrace that and adjust my musical interpretation of the piece, instead of trying to push what worked well on the other instrument when it might not fit this one. So, multiple pieces of equipment let you get to know the sound from different perspectives. Hmm, don't know if I'm doing a good job of describing what I mean.

Glad I could help! You got the explanation just right. The sequnce of delays and bangs, and that whole mess in there ;) would only get triggered when the recording was in a new clip slot. Removing the [change] object bypasses this condition. It may have been in there for a reason though, I'm not entirely clear on that.

Looping is a very small part of what I do in my musical practice. I use it mostly for improvisation and generating ideas. But I do care about it enough to cook my own loopers in M4L. You can see a demo here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXB-t6-JIvA

A whole live set with some looping thrown in here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Imgpe23lg

And I am working on a pretty cool looper right now in gen~ that constantly records what you are doing, and you can grab a definable amount of time. So for example, you just click the button once, and it plays back the last 2 bars, or 1 bar, or 1/8 note. It has overdubbing, slicing, and other crazy shit. Pretty fun, but not quite ready for human consumption ;)

Glad I could help! You got the explanation just right. The sequnce of delays and bangs, and that whole mess in there ;) would only get triggered when the recording was in a new clip slot. Removing the [change] object bypasses this condition. It may have been in there for a reason though, I'm not entirely clear on that. 

Looping is a very small part of what I do in my musical practice. I use it mostly for improvisation and generating ideas. But I do care about it enough to cook my own loopers in M4L. You can see a demo here: 

A whole live set with some looping thrown in here: 

And I am working on a pretty cool looper right now in gen~ that constantly records what you are doing, and you can grab a definable amount of time. So for example, you just click the button once, and it plays back the last 2 bars, or 1 bar, or 1/8 note. It has overdubbing, slicing, and other crazy shit. Pretty fun, but not quite ready for human consumption ;)


Evan, thank you so much. I've tested the device and it appears to be working perfectly. And Andrew, yes, with what you showed me about monitoring tracks, I think I'm there. I've been trying to get this point for years now. I can't believe it's finally possible.

I'll make a video soon for others who might want to do this.

Evan, your "hindsight" looper sounds really cool. Has anyone ever done that before? I've never seen it.

And Andrew, I totally get you. I've heard Keith Jarrett talk about changing his performance based on the piano and the venue. I like what you're saying about embracing changes in the moment and incorporating that into the performance. Yes.

Evan, thank you so much. I've tested the device and it appears to be working perfectly. And Andrew, yes, with what you showed me about monitoring tracks, I think I'm there. I've been trying to get this point for years now. I can't believe it's finally possible. 

And Andrew, I totally get you. I've heard Keith Jarrett talk about changing his performance based on the piano and the venue. I like what you're saying about embracing changes in the moment and incorporating that into the performance. Yes.


I hope you don't mind me stealing 'hindsight' for the name of the device ;)

Not at all, but I hope I don't regret it later. (makes bad joke)

I guess it's time for me to take your tips Andrew and start poking around in Max. I can see that I'm only going to want to further modify things going forward so I might well take the plunge and see if it's something I can understand and work with (I have no programming training or experience). The next thing I want to do it either add an 8 bar button to Streuner's device or create a version where the record length simply equals the global quantization value.

Evan, did you see the piece above about the GQ clock? Does that interest you at all? I should probably start a new thread on that as this one has gotten really long:

https://cycling74.com/forums/global-quantization-clock

Evan,  did you see the piece above about the GQ clock? Does that interest you at all? I should probably start a new thread on that as this one has gotten really long:
https://cycling74.com/forums/global-quantization-clock


Yeah, Max seems to be a good choice for you. I looked at other options, like it's brother Puredata, but with how Max is tied into Ableton, how refined the tools are (like the debugging abilities) and such, I've been really happy I went with it. Adding those variations should be doable. I'd start with the 8-bar one, since I think it will be easier to pull off. You'll just need to understand the portion of the code that sets the length, then duplicate/extend it with an additional button for 8. I'll have to check out the new thread, been away from my computer a lot the last week.

Really cool looping videos Evan, I'll be exploring your youtube account like a career internet stalker...bwahaha

Hey guys, I'm back from a long hiatus (blue eyes, long brown hair). Also moved from Arizona back to Colorado. I'm currently living with a friend and we're working on some new material. Very exciting. Hope you both are well.

Evan, did you ever publish your hindsight looper? Would love to check it out. I also wanted to ask you for your help again with Streuner's looping device. Do you have time for me to throw a couple questions your way?

Yeah I released version 1 awhile ago: http://www.maxforlive.com/library/device/4091/hindsight

There's some demo vids on that page you might want to check out. I use it all the time, and it's really fun if you have a push 1/2.

You can certainly ask questions, but I can't say for certain if I'll give you the answers you're looking for.

Yeah I released version 1 awhile ago: http://www.maxforlive.com/library/device/4091/hindsight
There's some demo vids on that page you might want to check out. I use it all the time, and it's really fun if you have a push 1/2.

You can certainly ask questions, but I can't say for certain if I'll give you the answers you're looking for. 

Thanks Evan, I'm going to check that out this afternoon. I'll hold off on the questions for now as I have one I'd like to ask Andrew first.

 My solution was to use Max to automate the Drag Me function, which is why I got into Max last month. At this point, I have a working (though, somewhat dirty and poorly laid out) patch that receives midi commands to drag each of my loopers current loops to clip slots either one at a time or all at once across the scene. I can then trigger scenes to play, clear individual loopers, pick which scene to dump clips to if I want to break the steady progression forward, clear all loopers etc. (though most of my midi control functionality is still being done with Bome/Ableton midi learn, since I'd built all that before getting into Max due to the major Drag Me sticking point). 

Problem with Clip Observer