Elden

I'm (yet) a Pure Data guy and developed a patch that can genetically breed sounds out of soft- and hardware synthesizers over MIDI (I called it "Ewolverine"). 

The limitation, of course, is that MIDI has only 128 control change parameters available to be assigned to a VST.

For newer, more complex synthesizers, like Waldorf's "Largo", for instance, 128 parameters are way too few.

So I need my patch to directly access the VST-native parameters that also DAWs are accessing when automation is recorded or played back.

So, if I would re-write my Pd-patch in Max For Live and would like to control an external synth loaded into a channel in Ableton Live, could I then nevertheless access the VST-native parameters directly or would Max For Live have to act like a VST-wrapper in such a case?

The answer to this question determines, if I buy me Max (For Live).

I'm (yet) a Pure Data guy and developed a patch that can genetically breed sounds out of soft- and hardware synthesizers over MIDI (I called it "Ewolverine"). 
The limitation, of course, is that MIDI has only 128 control change parameters available to be assigned to a VST.
For newer, more complex synthesizers, like Waldorf's "Largo", for instance, 128 parameters are way too few.
So I need my patch to directly access the VST-native parameters that also DAWs are accessing when automation is recorded or played back.
So, if I would re-write my Pd-patch in Max For Live and would like to control an external synth loaded into a channel in Ableton Live, could I then nevertheless access the VST-native parameters directly or would Max For Live have to act like a VST-wrapper in such a case?

Hello everyone,
I'm (yet) a Pure Data guy and developed a patch that can genetically breed sounds out of soft- and hardware synthesizers ove

accessing-vst-parameters-of-vsts-loaded-outside-of-max-for-live

I think for direct parameter control you need to load the VST into a [vst~] object of an M4L device, thus acting like a VST-wrapper. When loading the VST into a track in Live, parameter control is also possible (via the Live API) but requires mapping of each parameter and introduces some latency.

The problem with mapping always is the limited number of assignable parameters. I hope in the case of M4L, there are more than with MIDI. How many parameters does this Live API provide? (I don't really know what this Live API is, actually.)

Thank you, BROC.
That's what I feared...
The problem with mapping always is the limited number of assignable parameters. I hope in the case of M4L, there are more than with MIDI. How many parameters does this Live API provide? (I don't really know what this Live API is, actually.)

AFAIK, the number of parameter mappings via the Live API is not limited. But first you need to make the VST parameters visible in Live (using "Configure Mode") and I'm not sure if there is a limitation.

i remember some situation where live had a limit of 400 parameters total. and within live itself the automation i is still 128 i think. 

via live api there should not be any limit of the numbers, but for sure you dont want to deal with latency issues and other things broc mentioned.

i would do it in max/msp (first), there are no limits at all.

or, instead of making an amxd you could make a max4live patch. and then host the instrument in question within that patcher...

i remember some situation where live had a limit of 400 parameters total. and within live itself the automation i is still 128 i think. 
via live api there should not be any limit of the numbers, but for sure you dont want to deal with latency issues and other things broc mentioned.

i would do it in max/msp (first), there are no limits at all.

or, instead of making an amxd  you could make a max4live patch. and then host the instrument in question within that patcher...


If the patch that you are talking about really can genetically breed sounds out of soft than this will be a great addition! as 

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If the   patch that you are talking about really can genetically breed sounds out of soft  than this will be a great addition! as write my uni assignment online service that generally delivers the assignment in least possible time with best quality.

I want to migrate my big old maxmsp patch to Maxforlive and I have some issue with the VST.

I know Max a lot more than Maxforlive and I'm a bit disappointed.

I loaded a VST in a [vst~] inside my maxforlive device and every thing is working properly for sending and receiveing parameters values, but impossible to make automation possible..

I can record them with no problem but when I play them there is like a loop between the automation lane and the parameter and the automation stops (lane is greyed). I have to push "re-enable automation" but of course it's only working few milliseconds.

I saw someone who made a device which allways toggle "re-enable automation" in Live but the problem is then it's not possible anymore to move the parameter during playback and, btw, it's not a very elegant solution...

So, how it is possible to automate a vst parameter inside a [vst~] in Live ?

Hello, 
I have a problem linked to this post..
I want to migrate my big old maxmsp patch to Maxforlive and I have some issue with the VST.

 I think for direct parameter control you need to load the VST into a  [vst~] object of an M4L device, thus acting like a VST-wrapper. When  loading the VST into a track in Live, parameter control is also possible  (via the Live API) but requires mapping of each parameter and  introduces some latency. 

I know Max a lot more than Maxforlive and I'm a bit disappointed.
I loaded a VST in a [vst~] inside my maxforlive device and every thing is working properly for sending and receiveing parameters values, but impossible to make automation possible..
I can record them with no problem but when I play them there is like a loop between the automation lane and the parameter and the automation stops (lane is greyed). I have to push "re-enable automation" but of course it's only working few milliseconds.


So, how it is possible to automate a vst parameter inside a [vst~] in Live ?

Controlling a [vst~] parameter in M4L works like any other device parameter. It can be done manually or from automation lane. At playback you can switch between the modes but not use both at the same time. I think that's common behaviour of any DAW.

thank for your response but I don't manage to make automation in Live reacting in the same way with a regular VST in a track and a VST in a [vst~].

For the first case, it's working pefectly : you record the automation and then during playback if you change the parameter the automation stops (common behaviour), but with an automation of VST inside a [vst~] impossible for me to just play a simple automation, the lane is reseting by itself from the beginning ...

thank for your response but I don't manage to make automation in Live reacting in the same way with a regular VST in a track and a VST in a [vst~]. 

For the first case, it's working pefectly  : you record the automation and then during playback if you change the parameter the automation stops (common behaviour), but with an automation of VST inside a [vst~] impossible for me to just play a simple automation, the lane is reseting by itself from the beginning ...

Strange, just did a quick test and it works well for me. There seems something special with your VST. Maybe it sends parameter values at playback which disables the automation lane?

I post a little piece of the patch below.. I really don't understand..

The vst is a cool little free synth you can find here 

https://www.kvraudio.com/product/lokomotiv-by-archetype-instruments

Maybe it's just this vst which cause problems..

Maybe you can take a look if you have time ?

..which is strange is that this same vst in a track is perfectly well supporting automation record and playback..

In my example below I just tried to control the parameter n°6, hardsync.

recording automation is working perfectly, but once I play it, the lane become grey and automation stops despite the (set $1) before the live.numbox ... :/

Re,
I post a little piece of the patch below.. I really don't understand..
The vst is a cool little free synth you can find here 
https://www.kvraudio.com/product/lokomotiv-by-archetype-instruments

Maybe it's just this vst which cause problems..
...but I 'm not yet familiar with m4l...
Maybe you can take a look if you have time ?
..which is strange is that this same vst in a track is perfectly well supporting automation record and playback..


In my example below I just tried to control the parameter n°6, hardsync.
recording automation is working perfectly, but once I play it, the lane become grey and automation stops despite the (set $1) before the live.numbox ... :/


Your patch works for me (Mac, Live 9, Max 7).

Attached is my test song. Please check yourself.

Test.als.zip

 New.amxd.zip

https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/209069409--Re-enable-Automation-keeps-lighting-up

Your patch works for me (Mac, Live 9, Max 7).
Attached is my test song. Please check yourself.


PS. This article may be helpful.
https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/209069409--Re-enable-Automation-keeps-lighting-up



I have already read this article, maybe I am misunderstanding something..

It's exactly the same issue with your test song..

here : windows 10 Home / Max 8.1.3 / Live 10.1.9

Thank a lot for your time.
I have already read this article, maybe I am misunderstanding something..

here : windows 10 Home / Max 8.1.3 / Live 10.1.9


Yes, I've used the Lokomotiv VST, see screenshot below.

So the Windows version seems problematic.

Problem could also be that we have used the VST in a M4L MIDI effect. But as instrument it should rather be used in a M4L instrument device. In particular, host synchronisation may work only if audio output is connected.

VST Automation.png

Yes, I've used the Lokomotiv VST, see screenshot below.

So the Windows version seems problematic.

Thank you a lot for your help, obviously it's the windows version of the vst which causes the problem, if on mac it's working properly...

I tried the [vst~] in an instrument rack with no better results...

Thank you a lot for your help, obviously it's the windows version of the vst which causes the problem, if on mac it's working properly...
I tried the [vst~] in an instrument rack with no better results...
so...I give up =)

I had no issues or latency controlling VST loaded in Live from m4l device using LiveAPI, as well as extracting parameter names of VST using LiveAPI, no need to configure.

@BROC
I had no issues or latency controlling VST loaded in Live from m4l device using LiveAPI, as well as extracting parameter names of VST using LiveAPI, no need to configure.

Latency of the Live API is relevant only if you need accurate timing.

LiveAPI does not induce latency with remote~ object as far as I know.

LiveAPI does not induce latency with remote~ object as far as I know.
So the timing should be accurate.

See this thread, comment from Andrew Pask (cycling staff).

https://cycling74.com/forums/live-remote-latency

See this thread, comment from Andrew Pask (cycling staff).
https://cycling74.com/forums/live-remote-latency




accessing VST-parameters of VSTs loaded outside of Max (For Live)